From webstump at ..iark.greenend.org.uk Sat Oct 11 11:38:19 2025 Return-path: To: hex at ..seen.ac.am Subject: Re: Re: Avoiding the embarrassment of protests References: <6930115099.29cde37e@uninhabited.net> <10c4qej$3hvm8$4@dont-email.me> <10c8gac$2rtg6$1@dont-email.me> <10c989u$3abph$4@dont-email.me> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: matthewv+ulmtestmod at ..riolis.greenend.org.uk Errors-To: webstump+ulm-bounces at ..iark.greenend.org.uk X-Webstump-Event: [176017676424060] reject mistake Message-Id: From: webstump+ulm-bounces at ..iark.greenend.org.uk Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 11:38:18 +0100 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 The post that you submitted to uk.legal.moderated has been rejected by a moderator. The moderator assumes that you posted this by mistake. It may be that it quotes a previous post without adding your own comment, or the text you have added may appear incomplete. We hope you will review and then re-submit your message. The group charter and moderation policy can be found at https://uklegal.weebly.com/ Disputed moderation decisions can be discussed in the newsgroup uk.net.news.moderation ============================================ Full text of your message follows > From webstump@chiark.greenend.org.uk Sat Oct 11 10:59:24 2025 > Return-path: > Envelope-to: webstump+?@slimy.greenend.org.uk > Authentication-Results: mailhub-cam-d.mythic-beasts.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=uni-berlin.de; dkim=pass header.d=uni-berlin.de header.s=fub01 header.a=rsa-sha256 > X-STUMP-Warning-0: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-1: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-2: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-3: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uni-berlin.de; s=fub01; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:Message-ID:Date:Subject:From:To:From: Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:To:Cc:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:In-Reply-To: References; bh=ClLqNrcOc6/tYr4csZfbxG2iIEpa9pzlDF71Zy0SP/U=; t=1760176758; x=1760781558; b=KxrykUvDEMyvR+uOF4cEPy1pa5zHxajwOZnBdWCAqYkZQi/a+rKDuQ8+SmGNf Yqb6dUrufeRcIm > From: Norman Wells > Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated > Subject: Re: Avoiding the embarrassment of protests > Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 10:59:15 +0100 > Message-ID: > References: > > <6930115099.29cde37e@uninhabited.net> > <10c4qej$3hvm8$4@dont-email.me> > > <10c8gac$2rtg6$1@dont-email.me> > > <10c989u$3abph$4@dont-email.me> > > > > > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > X-Orig-X-Trace: individual.net Lnc6dirS3pdP8x268A5V6w9C3WCKVfoudkj6UrrA1m+paRB9az > Cancel-Lock: sha1:5KXyhW2eDQ98az5ntfU9h2BXm8s= sha256:n9nRO2ooqnw956fKuiO2ZiFu4vuWVQKLBpktq0ZCDms= > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Content-Language: en-GB > X-Originating-IP: 130.133.4.5 > X-ZEDAT-Hint: RO > X-Mythic-Source-External: YES > X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 54 > X-Spam-Status: No, score=5.4 > Delivered-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk > X-BlackCat-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk > X-Mythic-Originator: uid-1081-on-lynx.mythic-beasts.com > X-STUMP-Warning-4: Unfolded headers Received: Received: Received: Received: Authentication-Results: Received: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: > > On 11/10/2025 01:55, JNugent wrote: > > On 10/10/2025 07:52 PM, The Todal wrote: > > > >> On 10/10/2025 14:14, JNugent wrote: > >>> On 10/10/2025 11:57 AM, Jeff Gaines wrote: > >>>> Jon Ribbens wrote: > >>>>> Jeff Gaines wrote: > >> > >>> [ ... ] > >>> > >>>>>> We have different views, hopefully people want to listen to a > >>>>>> variety of views. > >>>>>> There is no point in protesting in support of a proscribed group, you > >>>>>> are breaking the law. > >>>>>> The thing to do is protest against restrictions on freedom of speech > >>>>>> which would be perfectly legitimate. There is no point in running > >>>>>> into brick walls, it hurts, find a way round it. > >> > >>>>> Thousands of people evidently disagree with you, and are willing to > >>>>> put not just their money but potentially their freedom on the line. > >> > >>>> Exactly what we are discussing, Clause 1 of The Human Rights Act 1998 > >> > >>>> "Everyone has the right to freedom of expression." > >> > >>>> I may not agree with those people but they have a right to hold their > >>>> views. > >> > >>> "Freedom of expression" cannot possibly extend to the destruction of > >>> property or to the causing of harm (physical, financial or otherwise) > >>> to individuals. > >>> Such free expression has to be lawful in itself. > >>> There was a time when no-one would have argued against that. > >> > >> I think you're conflating two issues: whether destroying property during > >> a demonstration is justifiable and lawful (I'm sure it generally isn't, > >> and is a breach of the Criminal Damage Act) and whether Palestine Action > >> deserves to be proscribed as a terrorist organisation. > >> > >> Spraying an aircraft with paint seems a reasonable action unless and > >> until we're told that it caused very expensive damage. > > > > Causing criminal damage is NEVER a "reasonable action". > > > > And it simply does not matter at all that "demonstrators" are of the > > opinion that their protests will fall upon deaf ears unless they commit > > criminal offences. The people with the ears (deaf or otherwise) are > > fully entitled to refuse to listen and/or take any notice of the > > demonstrators. > > > >> So apparently > >> then it becomes terrorism. Unfortunately the Israeli drone manufacturers > >> Elbit seem to have our Ministry of Defence in their pocket. Elbit have > >> been a regular target of PA demonstrations. > > > > You are over-reading the situation. > > > > Criminal damage is a crime. End of story. An organsisation that does it > > deserves sanction as an organisation. > >> > >> Spraying things with red paint is a pretty standard form of > >> demonstration. On glass doors and windows, for instance.  Extinction > >> Rebellion activists have thrown buckets of “blood” outside Downing > >> Street to call for greater action on climate change. About 400 > >> demonstrators, including families with children, spilled more than 200 > >> litres of red paint to make the severity of climate change “viscerally > >> clear”. > > > > All of it is unacceptable - totally unacceptable - criminal activity. > > > > How can anyone seek to excuse it? > >> > >> Does that make Extinction Rebellion a terrorist organisation? Some might > >> say so. > > > > Well yes... Parliament (effectively) says so. You'd better ask your > > questions about justification there. > > > > All I would add is that there are many people whose lives would be > > ruined by a criminal conviction. They will (or bloody well should) be > > most reluctant to break even a law they disagree with. So what > > Parliament has said is highly relevant to them. > > > >> If the aim is to ensure that all demonstrations are suppressed > >> and that the standard way of voicing opposition to government policies > >> is to sign a petition or write a firm letter to your MP. > > > > Where is this stuff coming from? > > > > NOBODY has a right to commit criminal damage to anything. > > > > Not never, not nohow. > > > > And nobody - no matter how important they "think" themselves - has any > > right to be listened to or heeded by the public. > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEfWu6wfyjzX88oocanSrwpvmn4x4FAmjqM5oACgkQnSrwpvmn 4x6w5Qf9Gos0E7Zq9p+imohnJOXbztC/21UIeUE7tBfXuBkiz+XFdKYd/0cdrmRn wLgXIjjgdmQgRyxkw7xAeIceJbeGgPlnzj0eXa8ZdD5rDfZ2tf98d7aOznhcmfO+ EYVzKyWj29MQNz/rbtEUE8WX2MI705P84MAEr8OGReZ9uVcC9P5tGZqN+m55Ozhv BMKon6VpvRPCWFINm6i9GJVwUycJYtyAlj4+ddZi2Xgg9DBn8i3NWfOlCqyxe482 c36weFO+vNp0cJBMPajV12qIP3VIQQMi6zQ5xLNrvPJOHYThs4K48CGlr01D2HTB 7WZjqac3ply6XcW9JRuTCiI1v21fVQ== =2hQo -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----