From webstump at ..iark.greenend.org.uk Fri Aug 16 20:15:18 2024 Return-path: To: hex at ..seen.ac.am Subject: Re: Re: Shamima Begum References: <6392027328.ba3b6a1b@uninhabited.net> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: matthewv+ulmtestmod at ..riolis.greenend.org.uk Errors-To: webstump+ulm-bounces at ..iark.greenend.org.uk X-Webstump-Event: [172382972827856] reject notnew Message-Id: From: webstump+ulm-bounces at ..iark.greenend.org.uk Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 20:15:16 +0100 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 The post that you submitted to uk.legal.moderated has been rejected by a moderator. This post contains insufficient new material. Similar points have been made already in this discussion, which is in danger of becoming too repetitive. The group charter and moderation policy can be found at https://uklegal.weebly.com/ Disputed moderation decisions can be discussed in the newsgroup uk.net.news.moderation ============================================ Full text of your message follows > From webstump@chiark.greenend.org.uk Fri Aug 16 18:35:28 2024 > Return-path: > Envelope-to: webstump+?@slimy.greenend.org.uk > Received-SPF: pass (mailhub-cam-d.mythic-beasts.com: domain of uni-berlin.de designates 130.133.4.89 as permitted sender) client-ip=130.133.4.89; envelope-from=mod-submit@uni-berlin.de; helo=outpost5.zedat.fu-berlin.de; > X-STUMP-Warning-0: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-1: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-2: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > X-STUMP-Warning-3: Next header (DKIM-Signature) truncated! > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=uni-berlin.de; s=fub01; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:Mime-Version:References:Message-ID:Date:Subject:From:To:Sender: Reply-To:Cc:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=YdYJoFQrbHH/pgupuoHIyVOBKd3crlMMGCv7S7Q47Ns=; t=1723829724; x=1724434524; b=XqIdSs4Qq40S85V > From: Norman Wells > Newsgroups: uk.legal.moderated > Subject: Re: Shamima Begum > Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2024 18:35:22 +0100 > Message-ID: > References: > > > <6392027328.ba3b6a1b@uninhabited.net> > > > > > > > > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > X-Orig-X-Trace: individual.net 9JQdwi6uUkKlL3KjQ/fdtg6V2bugW5oDyoQ8lzUd18LVzCY3Vf > Cancel-Lock: sha1:kCCOOeCPoKnj76qddogC2iUDzZI= sha256:2MXjc3Yu+oU4lH+cnWvG6Dfm2hr8fB7fG+2bcHOb8zU= > User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird > Content-Language: en-GB > X-Originating-IP: 130.133.4.5 > X-ZEDAT-Hint: RO > X-Mythic-Source-External: YES > X-BlackCat-Spam-Score: 17 > X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.7 > Delivered-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk > X-BlackCat-To: usenet-uk-legal-moderated@usenet.org.uk > X-Mythic-Originator: uid-1081-on-lynx.mythic-beasts.com > X-STUMP-Warning-4: Unfolded headers Received: Received: Received: Received: Received: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: DKIM-Signature: > > On 16/08/2024 17:14, Jon Ribbens wrote: > > On 2024-08-16, Norman Wells wrote: > >> On 16/08/2024 15:04, Jon Ribbens wrote: > >>> On 2024-08-16, Norman Wells wrote: > >>>> On 15/08/2024 17:09, Jon Ribbens wrote: > >>>>> On 2024-08-15, Norman Wells wrote: > >>>>>> That's not 'naturalisation', though, which only applies to those who do > >>>>>> not have British citizenship but want it. So, the answer to my first > >>>>>> question is that he didn't need it. > >>>>> > >>>>> No, it isn't. You're *still* missing the point. It's no use at all > >>>>> having a status if the state won't recognise it. My friend was a > >>>>> British citizen from birth but the state wouldn't recognise that fact, > >>>>> so they had to "re-acquire" the status they already had. > >>>> > >>>> Now you're using emotive words in place of linguistic and legal > >>>> precision. All he was lacking was proof of his existing citizenship. > >>>> 'Naturalisation' and 're-acquisition' don't come into it. > >>> > >>> You're not listening. I am not being "emotive", I am just providing > >>> the simple and direct truth. My friend had to naturalise - which is > >>> a term I am using quite precisely, they literally had to go through > >>> the procedure that the government calls "apply for British citizenship > >>> by naturalisation" - in order to re-acquire the citizenship they > >>> already had, because they didn't have sufficient proof of their > >>> existing citizenship to satisfy the rules of the day, and there was > >>> no prospect of obtaining such proof. > >> > >> naturalisation, n: > >> > >> "the admittance of a foreigner to the citizenship of a country" (oxford > >> Languages) > >> > >> "the act of making someone a legal citizen of a country that they were > >> not born in" (Cambridge Dictionary) > >> > >> "the legal act or process by which a non-national of a country acquires > >> the nationality of that country after birth" (Wikipedia) > >> > >> "The process by which a foreign citizen becomes a citizen of a new > >> country" (Dictionary.com) > >> > >> etc, etc. > >> > >> Sorry, but the term doesn't seem to apply, whatever action your friend took. > > > > You continue to spectacularly miss the point. And in addition you're > > trying to argue that the procedure the UK government calls "Apply for > > British citizenship by naturalisation" is not a process that involves > > naturalisation. > > Of course it is. But only as regards someone 'non-national' or > 'foreign' to start with. Otherwise, according to any definition you can > find, it can't be. > > You said you were using the term precisely. If you were, naturalisation > can't come into it. > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEfWu6wfyjzX88oocanSrwpvmn4x4FAma/pUQACgkQnSrwpvmn 4x6bQwgAwDUxSD2a4CdZ4ix/BsOF9oIDCLUA2Nq6qxNOBwpoak11JlbpqWn0CFFe fK3+k/8MUt59T/9ZfO9DbStxVE8yEw38CHfhFYL+/j70IjnEvfb5t9hUPMnG3e9r snJP6P+63igvC8uzbAgcngnrdnvOI28dZVJZMqa289UsJoH6LVUxm9F/79WBxafa EnmNEMUx1Fa24EvrR7gA298IOeNXzZawShYsEic9dTGaDi8DfzeZcAPdarNZVtgN P3djaMo+e5WpFLNOu/fe8idpKrGvO0pG6lzR8h+DVmWUaJHbyWWAt8GP99dPWq2b 9Htp57qRYUnHl1TYgCSplA8Sc4ajiQ== =giL1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----