Mastering the Internet
Ian Batten
ukcrypto at chiark.greenend.org.uk
Tue May 5 10:53:37 BST 2009
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On 4 May 2009, at 22:33, signup@bealoid.co.uk wrote:
> Quoting Peter Fairbrother <zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk>:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Moreover, even GCHQ cannot intercept without a warrant, which for
>> domestic communications (those not going to or from someone outside
>> the UK), must be only for communications to/from a specific person
>> or premises which must be mentioned by name therein, and which must
>> be signed by the hand of the relevant Secretary of State.
>
> That was the point of having 5 countries as part of Echelon. We ask
> the Americans to spy on our citizens, they ask us to spy on theirs.
> We hope they won't steal commercial aerospace secrets while they're
> doing it.
The problem with investing your opponents with super-powers is that it
renders you powerless. The thing that always amuses me about bores
who tell you about 9/11 conspiracies, universal tapping, drugs in the
water supply and the Illuminati is that they think they are clear-
sighted geniuses from an elite able to see the higher truths that
lesser people cannot, but in reality they are making excuses for their
own sense of utter powerlessness. Ask them why, for example, a
conspiracy able to launch aircraft at their own cities citizens
doesn't just kill a few troofers to shut them up, and they have no
answer.
Echelon as a thing to keep children awake at night with made some sort
of sense when a large portion of communications went by radio. Today,
I just don't see it. How would the US government convince UK
companies to hand over subscriber details and real-time DHCP and NAT
logs --- without which mapping intercept back to people is for
practical purposes impossible --- and keep it secret? How would the
UK government do the same thing in the US? Moreover, if they _are_
doing this, how come we are (a) unable to prevent terrorist attacks
that do happen and (b) unable to convict or even charge the majority
of people that are arrested? As a global inter-governmental
conspiracy goes, it's all a bit crap, isn't it? And if the argument
is that ``ah, to use the product would be to reveal the conspiracy'',
just what is it _for_, then? A programme, don't forget, which has
allegedly consumed billions under governments of a wide range of
political hues without ever leaking.
I don't believe that there is currently any significant amount of
illegal domestic surveillance, simply because the complexities of
keeping it secret and using the product for any purpose render it both
impossible and worthless. It suits campaigners on the left to
invest the government with super powers, just as it suits the hard
right to invest their beloved zionist conspiracy with super powers, or
the soft left to invest Murdoch with super powers: it allows them to
explain away their failures as the result of a conspiracy, rather than
their own inability to organise and mobilise.
Echelon is the perfect device for extremist groupuscles: it explains
any failure, it gives the `elite' something to mark themselves out
with, and it acts as a unifying force for recruitment. All objective
evidence is that it simply doesn't have the powers invested in it.
But it fulfils for headbangers the same role Satan does for
biblebashers.
ian
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 4 May 2009, at =
22:33, <a href=3D"mailto:signup@bealoid.co.uk">signup@bealoid.co.uk</a> =
wrote:</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Quoting Peter Fairbrother =
<<a =
href=3D"mailto:zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk">zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk</a>>:<br><br>[=
snip]<br><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">Moreover, even GCHQ cannot =
intercept without a warrant, which for domestic communications (those =
not going to or from someone outside the UK), must be only for =
communications to/from a specific person or premises which must be =
mentioned by name therein, and which must be signed by the hand of the =
relevant Secretary of State.<br></blockquote><br>That was the point of =
having 5 countries as part of Echelon. We ask the Americans to spy =
on our citizens, they ask us to spy on theirs. We hope they won't =
steal commercial aerospace secrets while they're doing =
it.<br></div></blockquote></div><br><div>The problem with investing your =
opponents with super-powers is that it renders you powerless. The =
thing that always amuses me about bores who tell you about 9/11 =
conspiracies, universal tapping, drugs in the water supply and the =
Illuminati is that they think they are clear-sighted geniuses from an =
elite able to see the higher truths that lesser people cannot, but in =
reality they are making excuses for their own sense of utter =
powerlessness. Ask them why, for example, a conspiracy able to =
launch aircraft at their own cities citizens doesn't just kill a few =
troofers to shut them up, and they have no =
answer.</div><div><br></div><div>Echelon as a thing to keep children =
awake at night with made some sort of sense when a large portion of =
communications went by radio. Today, I just don't see it. =
How would the US government convince UK companies to hand over =
subscriber details and real-time DHCP and NAT logs --- without which =
mapping intercept back to people is for practical purposes impossible =
--- and keep it secret? How would the UK government do the same =
thing in the US? Moreover, if they _are_ doing this, how come we =
are (a) unable to prevent terrorist attacks that do happen and (b) =
unable to convict or even charge the majority of people that are =
arrested? As a global inter-governmental conspiracy goes, it's all =
a bit crap, isn't it? And if the argument is that ``ah, to use the =
product would be to reveal the conspiracy'', just what is it _for_, =
then? A programme, don't forget, which has allegedly consumed =
billions under governments of a wide range of political hues without =
ever leaking.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't believe that there is =
currently any significant amount of illegal domestic surveillance, =
simply because the complexities of keeping it secret and using the =
product for any purpose render it both impossible and worthless. =
It suits campaigners on the left to invest the government with =
super powers, just as it suits the hard right to invest their beloved =
zionist conspiracy with super powers, or the soft left to invest Murdoch =
with super powers: it allows them to explain away their failures as the =
result of a conspiracy, rather than their own inability to organise and =
mobilise.</div><div><br></div><div>Echelon is the perfect device for =
extremist groupuscles: it explains any failure, it gives the `elite' =
something to mark themselves out with, and it acts as a unifying force =
for recruitment. All objective evidence is that it simply doesn't =
have the powers invested in it. But it fulfils for headbangers the =
same role Satan does for =
biblebashers.</div><div><br></div><div>ian</div><div><br></div></body></ht=
ml>=
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