ID card rollout begins
Ian Batten
ukcrypto at chiark.greenend.org.uk
Thu, 25 Sep 2008 11:34:32 +0100
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On 25 Sep 08, at 1003, Peter Tomlinson wrote:
> Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>
>> 2008/9/25 Peter Tomlinson :
>> Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
>>
>>>> 2008/9/25 Roland Perry:
>>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7634111.stm
>>>> "Ministers say the cards will combat illegal immigration and =20
>>>> working
>>>> because officials, employers and educational establishments will be
>>>> able to check a migrant's entitlements more easily"
>>>>
>>>> I presume they're allowing pretty much anyone to hook up to the
>>>> database and are going to provide card readers to employers then?
>>> No, you have to call the Call Centre.
>>>
>> So none of the biometrics, or any data stored on the chip for that
>> matter, are verified then? How would you know that the card is
>> authentic and not cloned from someone else who has legal =20
>> entitlements?
> My response was to the last question. Officials will have some kind =20=
> of as yet unspecified "readers", but maybe not portable ones.
Immigration and Asylum Act, 1996, section 8 uses the words ``appeared =20=
to him to relate to the employee''. Several summaries on government =20
websites, such as this use wording like ``Employers should ensure that =20=
the document presented appears to be the original, appears to relate =20
to the applicant and appears to be on the list of permitted =20
evidence'', which is subtly different: the act is asking if the =20
document appeared genuine to the prospective employer, the summary is =20=
asking if the document appeared genuine in some more abstract sense =20
(perhaps the mythical ``reasonable man'').
In terms of the act, ``appeared to him'' implies in the context of his =20=
knowledge and experience. A faked document would have to be =20
screamingly obvious for there to be even the beginning of a case =20
against the employer for accepting fake documents. It would be =20
completely unreasonable to expect an employer to made judgements on =20
the legitimacy of EU passports, never mind less family documents.
ian
(2)Subject to subsection (3) below, in proceedings under this section, =20=
it shall be a defence to prove that=97
(a)before the employment began, there was produced to the employer a =20
document which appeared to him to relate to the employee and to be of =20=
a description specified in an order made by the Secretary of State; and
(b)either the document was retained by the employer, or a copy or =20
other record of it was made by the employer in a manner specified in =20
the order in relation to documents of that description.
(3)The defence afforded by subsection (2) above shall not be available =20=
in any case where the employer knew that his employment of the =20
employee would constitute an offence under this section.
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 25 Sep 08, at =
1003, Peter Tomlinson wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"> <div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"> Igor Mozolevsky wrote: <blockquote =
cite=3D"mid:a2b6592c0809250136o432eb5f1g1ce9f7cc7b222958@mail.gmail.com" =
type=3D"cite"> <pre wrap=3D"">2008/9/25 Peter Tomlinson :
Igor Mozolevsky wrote:
</pre> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
<pre wrap=3D"">2008/9/25 Roland Perry:
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7634111.stm">http://news.bb=
c.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7634111.stm</a>
"Ministers say the cards will combat illegal immigration and working
because officials, employers and educational establishments will be
able to check a migrant's entitlements more easily"
I presume they're allowing pretty much anyone to hook up to the
database and are going to provide card readers to employers then?</pre> =
</blockquote> <pre wrap=3D"">No, you have to call the Call Centre.
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=3D""><!---->So none of the =
biometrics, or any data stored on the chip for that
matter, are verified then? How would you know that the card is
authentic and not cloned from someone else who has legal =
entitlements?</pre> </blockquote> My response was to the last question. =
Officials will have some kind of as yet unspecified "readers", but maybe =
not portable ones.</div></blockquote><br></div><div>Immigration and =
Asylum Act, 1996, section 8 uses the words ``appeared to him to relate =
to the employee''. Several summaries on government websites, such =
as <a =
href=3D"http://www.idea.gov.uk/idk/core/page.do?pageId=3D5222289">this</a>=
use wording like ``Employers should ensure that the document =
presented appears to be the original, appears to relate to the applicant =
and appears to be on the list of permitted evidence'', which is subtly =
different: the act is asking if the document appeared genuine to the =
prospective employer, the summary is asking if the document appeared =
genuine in some more abstract sense (perhaps the mythical ``reasonable =
man''). </div><div><br></div><div>In terms of the act, =
``appeared to him'' implies in the context of his knowledge and =
experience. A faked document would have to be screamingly obvious =
for there to be even the beginning of a case against the employer for =
accepting fake documents. It would be completely unreasonable to =
expect an employer to made judgements on the legitimacy of EU passports, =
never mind less family =
documents.</div><div><br></div><div>ian</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
arial; font-size: 14px; "><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
80%/normal arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; font-size: 0.8em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: =
0em; padding-top: 0em; padding-right: 0em; padding-bottom: 0em; =
padding-left: 0em; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: =
black; background-color: white; line-height: normal; clear: both; =
"><span class=3D"LegDS LegLHS LegP2No" style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; =
float: left; text-align: right; width: 8%; ">(2)</span><span =
class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP2Text" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; =
text-align: justify; width: 90%; ">Subject to subsection (3) below, in =
proceedings under this section, it shall be a defence to prove =
that=97</span></div><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal 80%/normal =
arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; margin-right: 0px; margin-left: =
0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: =
0em; font-size: 0.8em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 0em; =
padding-top: 0em; padding-right: 0em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-left: =
0em; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: black; =
background-color: white; line-height: normal; clear: both; width: 100%; =
"><span class=3D"LegDS LegLHS LegP3No" style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; =
float: left; text-align: right; width: 15%; ">(a)</span><span =
class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; =
text-align: justify; width: 83%; ">before the employment began, there =
was produced to the employer a document which appeared to him to relate =
to the employee and to be of a description specified in an order made by =
the Secretary of State; and</span></div><div style=3D"font: normal =
normal normal 80%/normal arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, =
verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; font-size: 0.8em; =
margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: 0em; padding-top: 0em; padding-right: =
0em; padding-bottom: 0em; padding-left: 0em; font-style: normal; =
font-weight: normal; color: black; background-color: white; line-height: =
normal; clear: both; width: 100%; "><span class=3D"LegDS LegLHS LegP3No" =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: left; text-align: right; =
width: 15%; ">(b)</span><span class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP3Text" =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; text-align: justify; =
width: 83%; ">either the document was retained by the employer, or a =
copy or other record of it was made by the employer in a manner =
specified in the order in relation to documents of that =
description.</span></div><div style=3D"font: normal normal normal =
80%/normal arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; font-size: 0.8em; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-top: =
0em; padding-top: 0em; padding-right: 0em; padding-bottom: 0em; =
padding-left: 0em; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; color: =
black; background-color: white; line-height: normal; clear: both; =
"><span class=3D"LegDS LegLHS LegP2No" style=3D"font-family: arial, =
helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; =
float: left; text-align: right; width: 8%; ">(3)</span><span =
class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP2Text" style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, =
verdana, sans-serif; letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; =
text-align: justify; width: 90%; ">The defence afforded by subsection =
(2) above shall not be available in any case where the employer knew =
that his employment of the employee would constitute an offence under =
this section.</span><span class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP2Text" =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; text-align: justify; =
width: 90%; "><br></span><span class=3D"LegDS LegRHS LegP2Text" =
style=3D"font-family: arial, helvetica, verdana, sans-serif; =
letter-spacing: 0em; display: block; float: right; text-align: justify; =
width: 90%; "><br></span><div style=3D"text-align: =
justify;"><br></div></div></span></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: arial; font-size: 14px; =
"></span></div></body></html>=
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