"Warrants authorising phone taps treble"

[Roland Perry]

In article <47A50B44.4030402@zen.co.uk>, Peter Fairbrother 
<zenadsl6186@zen.co.uk> writes
> The user issues a request to an
>> individual computer (identified by ip address, maybe also by domain name) -
>> that's the only communication the user takes part in.

The communication to the server is only in terms of an IP Address. Any 
translation from url to IP address takes place previously.

>No - for a start the IP address could involve one of many computers on 
>a local network, not just one identified computer, unless you include 
>the router as the computer. But the router does not have the accessed 
>files  on it.

IP Addresses define "interfaces". That can be an interface to many 
computers (even many computers behind a NAT gateway).

But this is all getting a bit technology specific. Where are we 
expecting this information to come *from*. Who has stored it and why?

>Yes, that computer
>> may in turn communicate with other computers is irrelevant,
>
>I don't think so - the wording is:
>
>"but that expression includes data identifying a computer file or
>computer program access to which is obtained, or which is run, by
>means of the communication to the extent only that the file or
>program is identified by reference to the apparatus in which it is
>stored."
>
>The  computer in question is the computer, or all the computers, which 
>have files or programs which are accessed.
>
>Suppose a popular site with some nasty content which is held on a 
>separate computer ("apparatus"). Did you access the nasty stuff? The 
>only way to know that is to know which computer was accessed - and 
>that's not the router, or the main server, but the separate computer 
>with the nasty stuff.
>
>Of course the nasty stuff could be on the main server - but it's also 
>possible that another computer on a local net, without the knowledge of 
>the site owner, has some nasty stuff on it.

Again, who is logging what, and why? The most likely is that a web 
server is logging what *client* IP addresses accessed which web *pages*.

If that log is examined under RIPA, all they are allowed to reveal is 
which machine (identified by its serial number just as much as the IP 
address or MAC address commonly associated with it) that page was served 
from.

If it was "randomly from any of the machines on that cluster over 
there", we are probably at a dead end (unless the CSP feels entitled to 
name the cluster, and that in turn might be all the investigator 
needed). In general, RIPA isn't very good at all when describing either 
one-to-many or many-to-one transactions.

If you want to understand the law, it's much easier to assume a simple 
setup with one website and one IP address per server; then try to work 
out the more complex scenarios having mastered that first.

>If on the other hand there were a request for information
>> as to how the request was dealt with by the computer that received it, a
>> reasonable response to which would identify those other computers, that
>> would not be a request for communications data because it would require the
>> programme to be identified regardless of whether it was the only programme
>> stored on that apparatus, which is explicitly not comms data.
>
>Ah, I see - but I don't think it would fly, as the ISP has to give up 
>enough data to identify the computer containing the accessed files.

Only if he logs that data, and only if he's kept that log.

>If for instance that's in the URL string somewhere then the ISP has to 
>reveal it.

You are getting too technology specific again.

If the ISP you are talking about is the one hosting the web pages, then 
he may have a log entry that shows access to a server in order to 
deliver a page [with a complex url]. All he has to do is say which 
server, and ignore the complexity in the url (even if that was logged).

>Though how the ISP knows this, or how much data to reveal, I do not know.

All he reveals is the identities of machines. He knows what his machines 
are called, and doesn't reveal anything else.
-- 
Roland Perry