From steve at einval.com Mon Aug 1 15:36:31 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:36:31 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers Message-ID: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, Thise of you that wanted to help organise DC7 in the UK (Edinburgh), Andreas has asked me to ask people to sign up to the DC6 team list. Mail debconf6-team-subscribe@lists.debconf.org to add yourself to the list, or see http://liw.iki.fi/liw/debian/debconf5 and s/5/6/ in the appropriate places. It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers for hosting appreciated... --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "It's actually quite entertaining to watch ag129 prop his foot up on the desk so he can get a better aim." [ seen in ucam.chat ] --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC7jNvfDt5cIjHwfcRAmQNAJ0Yn6sMTmpzEuuUxOfdZLPIqo1NKgCfe4SZ uoCaBPh1QJnIJMtydRJLF3g= =YtBo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --B4IIlcmfBL/1gGOG-- From neilm at debian.org Mon Aug 1 15:52:22 2005 From: neilm at debian.org (Neil McGovern) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 15:52:22 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> References: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050801145222.GT3332@mx0.halon.org.uk> --h22Fi9ANawrtbNPX Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 03:36:31PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers > for hosting appreciated... >=20 1x Majordomo offer :) Regards, Neil --=20 A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3 --h22Fi9ANawrtbNPX Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC7jcm97LBwbNFvdMRAi1zAJ9r0nPUMLbaqPo87zRnx6N+F13zLwCfS6nE y3XWY2EALljp6V0OkMjoUCg= =T4OU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --h22Fi9ANawrtbNPX-- From debian-uk at paul.sladen.org Mon Aug 1 16:02:09 2005 From: debian-uk at paul.sladen.org (Paul Sladen) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:02:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Steve McIntyre wrote: > It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers > for hosting appreciated... Can we get a DNS delegration from debconf.org and abstract it under that? lists.007.debconf.org ? -Paul -- The summer is normal here. London, GB From dsilvers at digital-scurf.org Mon Aug 1 16:05:21 2005 From: dsilvers at digital-scurf.org (Daniel Silverstone) Date: Mon, 01 Aug 2005 12:05:21 -0300 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> References: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> Message-ID: <1122908721.22429.1.camel@stupor.i.digital-scurf.org> On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 15:36 +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers > for hosting appreciated... I'm happy to offer whatever computing resources are required for DC7 organisation from pepperfish. So mailing lists, web space, database, etc. D. -- Daniel Silverstone http://www.digital-scurf.org/ PGP mail accepted and encouraged. Key Id: 2BC8 4016 2068 7895 From steve at einval.com Mon Aug 1 16:04:43 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:04:43 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: <20050801145222.GT3332@mx0.halon.org.uk> References: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> <20050801145222.GT3332@mx0.halon.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050801150443.GK6923@einval.com> --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 03:52:22PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote: >On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 03:36:31PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers >> for hosting appreciated... >>=20 > >1x Majordomo offer :) :-) I expected that - several offers all landed at once. Noodles won, and we have a mailman list hosted on the: http://www.earth.li/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dc7 Go sign up, people! --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/ca= fe/ --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC7joLfDt5cIjHwfcRAvaiAJ9t5tSYMJitBFI4U9RHoYGAmJ2BPwCfXfpz /pwIFOhfnB7hKH9jkIrutns= =AiP5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --AbQceqfdZEv+FvjW-- From dave at biff.org.uk Mon Aug 1 16:07:40 2005 From: dave at biff.org.uk (Dave Holland) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:07:40 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> References: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050801150740.GA1220@eyas.biff.org.uk> On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 03:36:31PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers > for hosting appreciated... I can host Enemies-of-Carlotta-managed lists on a colo machine if you want. Cheers, Dave From steve at einval.com Mon Aug 1 16:13:40 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Mon, 1 Aug 2005 16:13:40 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf7 organisers In-Reply-To: References: <20050801143631.GJ6923@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050801151340.GM6923@einval.com> --z+pzSjdB7cqptWpS Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 01, 2005 at 04:02:09PM +0100, Paul Sladen wrote: >On Mon, 1 Aug 2005, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> It might be worth starting up a DC7 mailing list soon, as well. Offers >> for hosting appreciated... > >Can we get a DNS delegration from debconf.org and abstract it under that? > > lists.007.debconf.org ? Probably... :-) --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com You raise the blade, you make the change... You re-arrange me 'til I'm sane= =2E.. --z+pzSjdB7cqptWpS Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC7jwkfDt5cIjHwfcRAoZSAJ4vGxR2l/0r+zdH920PnwAo02CfEwCgiJRT DF82inbUdhnhxvCuHBgPvMo= =rlNM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --z+pzSjdB7cqptWpS-- From adam at thebowery.co.uk Tue Aug 2 22:31:32 2005 From: adam at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:31:32 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] AFFS conference, speakers wanted and Debian stand. Message-ID: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> Hi, On Saturday 13th August the AFFS conference and AGM will be taking place in London, see http://www.affs.org.uk/affsac.html for more details. AFFS would like to offer Debian (UK) a stand for the event, and we can offer spaces for 4 Debian people to come and help out on the stand and offer talks. At the moment we are really looking for more some more talks, so we would prefer to preferentially allocate spaces based on if someone will be giving a talk. We can cover reasonable travel costs for people who give a talk. If you would be willing to offer a talk then can you please drop frontdesk@affs.org.uk a mail mentioning that you saw this mail on the debian-uk list and what the subject of the talk would be. If you are already an AFFS member then you don't need one of these places and can register for the conference in the normal fashion. I guess that finding out who wants to organise the stand (Steve?) would be best done here. Thanks Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From mark.hymers at ncl.ac.uk Wed Aug 3 08:57:22 2005 From: mark.hymers at ncl.ac.uk (Mark Hymers) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 08:57:22 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] AFFS conference, speakers wanted and Debian stand. In-Reply-To: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> References: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050803075722.GA8508@mhy.org.uk> On Tue, 02, Aug, 2005 at 10:31:32PM +0100, Adam Bower spoke thus.. > I guess that finding out who wants to organise the stand (Steve?) would > be best done here. I'll be around to lend a hand as I'm a member of AFFS anyways. I'll be arriving at London Kings Cross around 8amish and need to catch the 20:30 train back up North. Mark -- Mark Hymers "That's why the good die young; it's because Death can't be bothered to check the paperwork." Andy Hamilton, Old Harry's Game From adam at thebowery.co.uk Wed Aug 3 09:30:23 2005 From: adam at thebowery.co.uk (Adam Bower) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 09:30:23 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] AFFS conference, speakers wanted and Debian stand. In-Reply-To: <20050803075722.GA8508@mhy.org.uk> References: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> <20050803075722.GA8508@mhy.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050803083023.GF5030@thebowery.co.uk> On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 08:57:22AM +0100, Mark Hymers wrote: > On Tue, 02, Aug, 2005 at 10:31:32PM +0100, Adam Bower spoke thus.. > > I guess that finding out who wants to organise the stand (Steve?) would > > be best done here. > > I'll be around to lend a hand as I'm a member of AFFS anyways. I'll be > arriving at London Kings Cross around 8amish and need to catch the 20:30 > train back up North. One thing I forgot was that there should be beerage at a pub nearby after the event... Adam -- jabberid = quinophex@jabber.earth.li AFFS || http://www.affs.org.uk/ || Not a filesystem From pm at debian.org Wed Aug 3 12:35:28 2005 From: pm at debian.org (Paul Martin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:35:28 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] [VAC] 15:00 - 15:30 Message-ID: <20050803113528.GB18465@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> I'll be nipping out to the shops later today. I don't think there's anything wrong with my packages that requires urgent attention, but feel free to NMU whilst I'm out, as long as you send me a picture postcard if you do. -- Paul Martin From steve at einval.com Wed Aug 3 13:46:47 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 13:46:47 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] AFFS conference, speakers wanted and Debian stand. In-Reply-To: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> References: <20050802213132.GE5030@thebowery.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050803124647.GB3835@einval.com> --5/uDoXvLw7AC5HRs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 02, 2005 at 10:31:32PM +0100, Adam Bower wrote: >Hi, > >On Saturday 13th August the AFFS conference and AGM will be taking place >in London, see http://www.affs.org.uk/affsac.html for more details. > >AFFS would like to offer Debian (UK) a stand for the event, and we can=20 >offer spaces for 4 Debian people to come and help out on the stand and=20 >offer talks. > >At the moment we are really looking for more some more talks, so we >would prefer to preferentially allocate spaces based on if someone will >be giving a talk. We can cover reasonable travel costs for people who=20 >give a talk. > >If you would be willing to offer a talk then can you please drop >frontdesk@affs.org.uk a mail mentioning that you saw this mail on the >debian-uk list and what the subject of the talk would be. If you are=20 >already an AFFS member then you don't need one of these places and can=20 >register for the conference in the normal fashion. > >I guess that finding out who wants to organise the stand (Steve?) would >be best done here. So, who'd like to go along? I'll have more T-shirts by then, and can probably take along a machine to write CDs/DVDs. Anybody else? --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "This dress doesn't reverse." -- Alden Spiess --5/uDoXvLw7AC5HRs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC8Ly3fDt5cIjHwfcRAnacAJ9Z8wK32RedtHxd7e6ehmah8PEr/wCfT1uj G0woIWi5J8mGdxTL9VYqlDo= =JOAR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5/uDoXvLw7AC5HRs-- From Steve Kemp Wed Aug 3 12:39:11 2005 From: Steve Kemp (Steve Kemp) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 12:39:11 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] [VAC] 15:00 - 15:30 In-Reply-To: <20050803113528.GB18465@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> References: <20050803113528.GB18465@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050803113911.GA25791@steve.org.uk> On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 12:35:28PM +0100, Paul Martin wrote: > I'll be nipping out to the shops later today. Well if you're going anyway .... Wanna get me some coffee? ;) Steve -- # Debian System Administration www.debian-administration.org/ From pm at debian.org Wed Aug 3 17:06:14 2005 From: pm at debian.org (Paul Martin) Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2005 17:06:14 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] [VAC] 15:00 - 15:30 In-Reply-To: <20050803113911.GA25791@steve.org.uk> References: <20050803113528.GB18465@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> <20050803113911.GA25791@steve.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050803160613.GA6897@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 12:39:11PM +0100, Steve Kemp wrote: > On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 12:35:28PM +0100, Paul Martin wrote: > > I'll be nipping out to the shops later today. > > Well if you're going anyway .... > > Wanna get me some coffee? ;) Is that release critical? -- Paul Martin From mjr at phonecoop.coop Fri Aug 5 02:25:02 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:25:02 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:38:42 +0100 <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> Message-ID: Steve McIntyre wrote: > Note: FOOD and DRINK may be consumed. T-SHIRTS may be AVAILABLE. There > will be an AGM for the Debian-UK Society. > > YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! Can we ditch the AGMs now? Here's a draft motion: BECAUSE: 1. We just want a simple way to have a UK bank account that survives well if the main owner is hit by a bus; 2. The society constitution gives no way to replace bus-hit committee before the next AGM - it doesn't achieve the aim; 3. The constitution misses bits, like an express power to amend it - it's a pain to bugfix it. AND: 4. Debian-UK assets are really part of the Debian project; 5. The project already has a constitution, which is enough; 6. The bank account holders haven't run off with money yet, but if they did misbehave, Debian could use another UK holder instead; 7. The society gets reports, votes on motions and elections - it's more bureaucracy than we want at a barbecue. SO, I move: the AGM dissolves the Debian-UK Society and authorises the transfer of all its assets to a Debian-UK trust, which will include the current account signatories if they wish. ENDS I hope the bank just needs the resolution and the trust deed, then things are simpler (like no society resolution needed to change signatories in future). Apologies for that, but it could be the last mass vote needed. Comments, support, rejections? -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From steve at einval.com Fri Aug 5 12:26:10 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:26:10 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> --E/DnYTRukya0zdZ1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Aug 05, 2005 at 02:25:02AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: >Steve McIntyre wrote: >> Note: FOOD and DRINK may be consumed. T-SHIRTS may be AVAILABLE. There >> will be an AGM for the Debian-UK Society. >>=20 >> YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! > >Can we ditch the AGMs now? Here's a draft motion: >Apologies for that, but it could be the last mass vote needed. >Comments, support, rejections? Mark, feel free to come along to the bbq to try and get some support for your motion. I'm sure we'd all support anything useful that you have to propose. You might even enjoy yourself at the party. --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb." -- Steven M. Hafl= ich --E/DnYTRukya0zdZ1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC80zSfDt5cIjHwfcRAjGEAJ4gUfgTZIF2Q3EO+uGC3uCFnGVrpQCfRMQh ICpZyl+eH+cAMDz6qdsDZNk= =t3M9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --E/DnYTRukya0zdZ1-- From vince at debian.org Fri Aug 5 13:09:16 2005 From: vince at debian.org (Vincent Sanders) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 13:09:16 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debian-UK Society AGM Message-ID: <20050805120916.GA2293@localhost.localdomain> --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is an announcement of the Debian-UK Society AGM on Saturday 27th August 2005. The meeting will be held at the current treasurers residence 87 Kendal Way, Cambridge CB4 1LP and commence at 5pm. All nominations for posts and motions must be sent to the secretary by Sunday 14th August. Further details are available from the society wiki http://wiki.earth.li/DebianUKSociety --=20 Vincent Sanders Secretary Debian-UK society --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC81bsiUwwPOvjHvURArIGAJ4vYZcWR/ticRrMBc84SJOYaUpQEgCg8qVh 8yLxzfKg4aj6p7PYTN7D8oM= =G008 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --NzB8fVQJ5HfG6fxh-- From steve at einval.com Fri Aug 5 18:20:19 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2005 18:20:19 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debian UK Treasurer's report for July 2005 Message-ID: <20050805172019.GD13120@einval.com> --SNIs70sCzqvszXB4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable July saw a huge amount of T-shirt sales at Debconf. As almost all of those T-shirts were being sold to Debian people, there was very little profit on them. After all, we're not trying to make money from Debian people themselves. To add complication, the actual takings from Debconf are (as yet) not finalised. I sold quite a few T-shirts to Jesus Climent for him to sell on to people within Nokia, and we're still waiting on the (Euros) money transfer to clear. For now, the amount reported below in Debconf T-shirt income is _estimated_ only. In next month's report, I'll update the figures to match the reality. I still have a small number of T-shirts in stock after Debconf, and I have ordered more to cover expected demand at the AFFS AGM (August 13th) and the next Linux Expo at the beginning of October). For the period 1 July to 31 July 2005: (All figures in GBP) =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Income T-shirt/polo shirt/sales at Debconf 5 (known) 1,342.89 Delayed T-shirt sales at Debconf 5 (estimated) =20 (EUR 138 @ 1.45275 conversion) 94.99 Other T-shirt sales 77.43 TOTAL INCOME (estimated) 1,515.31 Expenses Purchase of more t-shirts for Debconf -604.89 Reimbursement to Steve McIntyre for RAM for arm buildd machine (grieg) -41.52 TOTAL EXPENSES -646.41 NET INCOME, July 2005 (estimated) 868.90 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Balance sheet Balance as at 01 July 2005 789.49 Income from July 2005 (estimated) 868.90 Balance carried forward (estimated) 1,658.39 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com Getting a SCSI chain working is perfectly simple if you remember that the= re must be exactly three terminations: one on one end of the cable, one on t= he far end, and the goat, terminated over the SCSI chain with a silver-handl= ed knife whilst burning *black* candles. --- Anthony DeBoer --SNIs70sCzqvszXB4 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC85/TfDt5cIjHwfcRAqa4AJ9K4oGtD52GxjCo5GEwxXabSAn+EQCfZTYX 6Dg0M9xo4Cqmjfj6lFxg+xg= =mP+r -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --SNIs70sCzqvszXB4-- From matthew at walster.org Mon Aug 8 14:59:30 2005 From: matthew at walster.org (Matthew Walster) Date: Mon, 08 Aug 2005 14:59:30 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 27 Jul 2005 12:38:42 +0100 <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> Message-ID: <42F77352.13437.2D4D0B@localhost> On 5 Aug 2005 at 2:25, MJ Ray wrote: > SO, I move: the AGM dissolves the Debian-UK Society and authorises the > transfer of all its assets to a Debian-UK trust, which will include > the current account signatories if they wish. Surely this is introducing more paperwork (something Debian seems to like in barrow-loads) as a trust needs financial accounting at the end of each financial year, whereas a society only needs informal accounting done, presenting statements at the AGM? Does anyone know the legal connotations of this? On a separate note - I'm not a DebDev, would it be too rude of me to ask that I sit in on the AGM? Matthew Walster From wookey at aleph1.co.uk Mon Aug 8 15:48:58 2005 From: wookey at aleph1.co.uk (Wookey) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 15:48:58 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> +++ MJ Ray [05-08-05 02:25 +0100]: > Steve McIntyre wrote: > > Can we ditch the AGMs now? Here's a draft motion: > > BECAUSE: > 1. We just want a simple way to have a UK bank account that > survives well if the main owner is hit by a bus; > 2. The society constitution gives no way to replace bus-hit > committee before the next AGM - it doesn't achieve the aim; If this is true it does seem to be something of a problem, and one does wonder if the society is actually better than simply letting the clearly-sufficiently trustworthy Steve just carry on as before. I assume it is actually better, having not looked at it in any detail. > 3. The constitution misses bits, like an express power to > amend it - it's a pain to bugfix it. > > AND: > 4. Debian-UK assets are really part of the Debian project; > 5. The project already has a constitution, which is enough; > 6. The bank account holders haven't run off with money yet, but > if they did misbehave, Debian could use another UK holder instead; > 7. The society gets reports, votes on motions and elections > - it's more bureaucracy than we want at a barbecue. > > SO, I move: the AGM dissolves the Debian-UK Society and authorises > the transfer of all its assets to a Debian-UK trust, which will > include the current account signatories if they wish. This sounds plausible to me. Is there a way of arranging things so that we don't need AGMs and constitutions just to have somewhere to put the UK Debian money? There clearly ought to be. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ From pm at debian.org Mon Aug 8 20:44:12 2005 From: pm at debian.org (Paul Martin) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 20:44:12 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> Message-ID: <20050808194412.GB7436@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 03:48:58PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > This sounds plausible to me. Is there a way of arranging things so that we > don't need AGMs and constitutions just to have somewhere to put the UK > Debian money? There clearly ought to be. The AGM doesn't have to be anything fancy. "Are we going to do the same as last year if Steve is willing?" "Yeah." "Motion carried. Right, anyone for a burger?" -- Paul Martin From iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk Mon Aug 8 21:11:21 2005 From: iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk (Brett Parker) Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2005 21:11:21 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050808194412.GB7436@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> <20050808194412.GB7436@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050808201121.GA6755@pitr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Paul Martin wrote: > On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 03:48:58PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > > > This sounds plausible to me. Is there a way of arranging things so that we > > don't need AGMs and constitutions just to have somewhere to put the UK > > Debian money? There clearly ought to be. > > The AGM doesn't have to be anything fancy. > > "Are we going to do the same as last year if Steve is willing?" > > "Yeah." > > "Motion carried. Right, anyone for a burger?" Wasn't the setup of the society done over beer anyways? Surely the reason for an AGM is for anyone worried about $things to bring them up at that time... but then, if they weren't so god damned stubborn, or ill advised, or allergic to chocolate or something, maybe they'd bring their concerns up on the list. I can't see as there's any problem having an AGM at the BBQ, if it's anything like the general setup in the first place, it's 30 mins to an hour of official debian-uk people (i.e. people that actually have developer status, as I believe that's the current clause for the society?) everyone else that's either not worried or not interested could just continue with the other festivities... like beer, and burgers, and rando-chats-with-insane-developers... Anyways - just my 2ps worth... Cheers, - -- Brett Parker web: http://www.sommitrealweird.co.uk/ email: iDunno@sommitrealweird.co.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC97xpEh8oWxevnjQRAhsrAJ9M86CZWh8q+TWKk+AXZ98My2k9OQCgvQV2 0Lnzu6QXOg8uJAHLUkCiVm0= =UI9Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Tue Aug 9 00:57:54 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 00:57:54 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 5 Aug 2005 12:26:10 +0100 <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> Message-ID: Steve McIntyre wrote: > Mark, feel free to come along to the bbq to try and get some support > for your motion. I'm sure we'd all support anything useful that you > have to propose. Thanks. What do you think of the idea's usefulness? > You might even enjoy yourself at the party. Depends mostly who else is there. At least wagn runs this year AFAICT. Best wishes, -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From peter at chocky.org Tue Aug 9 09:40:08 2005 From: peter at chocky.org (Peter Naulls) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> Message-ID: In message Peter Naulls wrote: [snip] > And er, probably some other stuff too that I need to get rid of, or > it'll end up in the skip. Like this lot: http://www.chocky.org/forsale/ Mostly not computer stuff, I'm afraid, but it's a chance for lots of people with cars nearby to possibly take away stuff. -- Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org | http://www.chocky.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Diary of RISC OS | http://riscos.blog.com/ From phil at hands.com Tue Aug 9 11:20:17 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:20:17 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> Message-ID: <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigA995B8D6BD2140559199DB8B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MJ Ray wrote: > Steve McIntyre wrote: > >>Mark, feel free to come along to the bbq to try and get some support >>for your motion. I'm sure we'd all support anything useful that you >>have to propose. > > > Thanks. What do you think of the idea's usefulness? Well, if you're proposing a replacement with a trust setup, perhaps you should first expand on the pros & cons of such a trust. For example, what are the running costs, what are the setup costs, what differences does it introduce in terms of restrictions on our freedom to spend the money as we deem fit? The edge case here is probably something like "can we spend money made at the Expo to buy a beer for Alan Cox after tear-down, if we feel like it?" Also, would a trust not need a set of aims and purposes that were defined in terms that would keep a lawyer happy, whereas the constitution's only reason for existence is to reassure the bank clerk that opens the account. As I see it, the current constitution does not preclude the possibility of changing it, so there is no need to change it unless there is actually an identifiable problem that is causing us pain, or if it turns out that it is not sufficient to convince the bank clerk in question. Also, when you claim that the current setup doesn't address the problem of runaway busses, you seem to have conflated an individual steve+bus event and a bus hat trick. In the former there will be surviving committee members, so the problem is explicitly solved. In the later I'd presume that the remaining membership would be bright enough to notice that clause 12 mentions that committees can be elected at EGMs, and decide that it's fair to call an EGM and elect a new committee. Of course, if someine gets pedantic at that point, I don't see anything to stop and EGM being called to move forward the next AGM, and then do the election at that -- said pedant could always be beaten with sticks until they shut up at that point of course. Feel free to refer to this post from the chairman for authority in that case ;-) I actually see the lack of an explicit proceedure for changing the constitution as a feature, rather than a bug, because it would be really annoying to have to put up with barrack-room lawyers quoting the constitution in an attempt to insert changes into the constitution. The fact is that the constitution is a device for obtaining a bank account, end of story. I have enough faith in the vast majority of the membership to react in a sane manner in extremis, and interpret the constitution in the spirit it was intended, rather than trying to insert assumed "only"s into every clause. I hope that the membership trusts the committee to continue doing the right thing, and are capable of electing trustworthy people in future. If those two assumptions prove to be incorrect, I rather hope that it happens after I've been mounted by a bus, because I wouldn't apreciate the resulting disapointment. That said, if you have suggestions for simple improvements to the constitution (and by that I do not mean 5 pages of procedure for voting on changes to it) then given that we've not yet got a bank account, we can cheerfully tear it up, write it out again, and sign it again (preferably back dated to the date we signed it last time so that the bank thinks we've always had the new wording). I doubt I'd support any constitution that doesn't fit comfortably on one side of A4. If you don't like the idea of tearing up the constitution, then you've clearly misunderstood what it's for -- once we've handed it to the bank, it's probably set in stone because explaining to a bank why we felt the need to change it is probably more painful than any flaw it might contain, but until then it's just a piece of slightly beer stained paper. It's not like we've taken membership fees from the membership, and the money's still in Steve's bank account, so in reality nothing has changed since the constitution was written. Please do come along so we can discuss the details over a pint or two though :-) Cheers, Phil. --------------enigA995B8D6BD2140559199DB8B Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC+INqYgOKS92bmRARAuJDAJ4yzHZMBMAGRuqSWy1joKANjabogACdFMEV vszOpIrpkXK7JDum/Rt5260= =qJPa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigA995B8D6BD2140559199DB8B-- From steve at einval.com Tue Aug 9 13:54:57 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 13:54:57 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050808144858.GE17877@xios> Message-ID: <20050809125457.GA9929@einval.com> --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Aug 08, 2005 at 03:48:58PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > >This sounds plausible to me. Is there a way of arranging things so that we >don't need AGMs and constitutions just to have somewhere to put the UK >Debian money? There clearly ought to be. The Debian UK Society setup was meant to be the minimal amount of paperwork/effort required. As Paul suggested, the AGM should simply be on the order of 5 minutes: "We had this much money, we now have this much" "Same committee? Yes..." "Any motions? No..." "Where's my beer?" Anything more than that is basically missing the point. --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com Armed with "Valor": "Centurion" represents quality of Discipline, Honor, Integrity and Loyalty. Now you don't have to be a Caesar to concord the digital world while feeling safe and proud. --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+KehfDt5cIjHwfcRAuvZAKCbGM666nqV3bJqx8SLd2wfpHs1dgCfe88N Qsf4aA90BSmzVfkvCPu8U3c= =1Kw+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --RnlQjJ0d97Da+TV1-- From steve at einval.com Tue Aug 9 14:02:09 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 14:02:09 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050809130209.GB9929@einval.com> --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 12:57:54AM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: >Steve McIntyre wrote: >> Mark, feel free to come along to the bbq to try and get some support >> for your motion. I'm sure we'd all support anything useful that you >> have to propose. > >Thanks. What do you think of the idea's usefulness? I'm unconvinced, to be honest. I would expect a trust to take more effort for little gain. As I've explained elsewhere, the aim of what we've done is to set up the smallest, simplest, easiest organisation that will get a bank account that we can use. Anything above that minimum-effort setup is too much, IMHO. If you have real problems with the current constitution, please propose a better one - I feel that would be a more productive avenue. --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "Because heaters aren't purple!" -- Catherine Pitt --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+KlRfDt5cIjHwfcRAuqtAJ43w9H4auhF/PahRkeDJWilr9wc+ACfTAz0 5zJBYtVI4tgjcfoP+kuHwI4= =/pu8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mojUlQ0s9EVzWg2t-- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Tue Aug 9 17:18:03 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 17:18:03 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Aug 2005 11:20:17 +0100 <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> Message-ID: Summary: "Late addition" is the most interesting paragraph. It seems we don't need a constitution to open an account anyway. I think that assumption has gone unchallenged since the outset and now it seems to be wrong. I didn't know most of the answers, so I've looked them up. It's a bit depressing to do this. Debian seems to be becoming a suspicious and unfriendly crowd. I'm surprised some think an association simpler. Why? Andrew Phillips puts trusts first in his list of types ordered from simple to complicated (like most I've seen) and writes "The trust is usually ideal for simple or narrow-purpose charities, small-scale charities and charities not looking for formal constitutional participation by volunteers or members."[note 1] I think that's fine. The debian project has other ways to interact with the bank account holders, as it does now, and who wants more AGMs and voting? Philip Hands wrote: > Well, if you're proposing a replacement with a trust setup, perhaps you > should first expand on the pros & cons of such a trust. Pros: no need to manage membership or meetings, property can be held in trust more simply, smaller group involved in decision-making. Cons: no membership, different charity registration process.[note 2] > For example, what are the running costs, what are the setup costs, what > differences does it introduce in terms of restrictions on our freedom to > spend the money as we deem fit? Running costs are lower, as you do not need to run meetings or track members (which involves privacy and discrimination laws, as well as the basic administration). Setup costs look to be slightly higher, as you seem to need Inland Revenue stamp on the deed (GBP 5 in 2003)[note 3] but I forgot to check whether associations do too. In theory, trust is freer, as only trustees have any say. In practice, I'd hope no difference between the two. > The edge case here is probably something like "can we spend money made at > the Expo to buy a beer for Alan Cox after tear-down, if we feel like it?" Trust: yes. Association: yes, but the members can slap you for it. > Also, would a trust not need a set of aims and purposes that were defined > in terms that would keep a lawyer happy, whereas the constitution's only > reason for existence is to reassure the bank clerk that opens the account. There's no change in lawyers or bank clerks, as far as I can tell. In reply to Matthew Walster, there is little difference in accounting requirements between an association and a trust. The amount of paperwork depends on whether it's charitable and what the income is, with steps up at 1k, 10k and 250k pounds [note 4]. An association "must register if their objects are charitable and their annual income is over GBP 1000"[note 5]. The limits were expected to change with a new law, with the lower one rising to 5000. I don't know the legal connotations beyond what I've read and cited here and I've not got lawyer-fee-size small change to spare. My library is also not very big. If anyone has a better way to check, please do and tell me soon. I don't want to object to anyone sitting in on the AGM, but please let's not make it a big song and dance. Back to Phil's message: > As I see it, the current constitution does not preclude the possibility of > changing it, AIUI, if a constitution is silent about changing it, the law has a default. For registered charities, you need the charity commission to agree. For others, you probably need unanimous consent.[note 6] Both of those suck. > so there is no need to change it unless there is actually an > identifiable problem that is causing us pain, Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may well be interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone want and enjoy a needless AGM? > or if it turns out that it is > not sufficient to convince the bank clerk in question. I can't tell that, but I'd be surprised. Anyone tested it? > Also, when you claim that the current setup doesn't address the problem of > runaway busses, you seem to have conflated an individual steve+bus event > and a bus hat trick. [...] I thought the aim was to provide a smooth transition for money and sooner than waiting for Steve's estate to be sorted. There's less chance of a hattrick, but it's not impossible. I think charities need at least three committee members, so swift replacement would be needed after one bus, if registered. If this is more about having a bureaucracy in the name of most UK-resident DDs, go for it, but that isn't the public line: > The fact is that the constitution is a device for obtaining a bank account, > end of story. Good. Do the simplest thing that works for banking: a trust. Because it's such a long tradition, a trust could even be verbal [note 1], but practicalities make it a lot easier in writing. I remember building societies offered trust accounts (like 20 years ago) with the same forms setting up the trust and opening the account, but mutuals have changed a lot since. Late addition: I just called Norwich & Peterborough Building Society's enquiry line a few minutes ago (www.npbs.co.uk - I have accounts with them and they have a branch in Cambridge, but you can pay in at branches of some banks nationwide). The operator said that we'd need the usual proof of ID and address for signatories, something from debian proving their charitable status and authorising you to hold money in trust for them (would this be DPL or SPI?) preferably on headed paper, then they'll open the account, mark it as a charity account (no charges) and do the rest. No deed of trust or stamp duty required. > That said, if you have suggestions for simple improvements to the > constitution (and by that I do not mean 5 pages of procedure for voting on > changes to it) then given that we've not yet got a bank account, we can > cheerfully tear it up, write it out again, and sign it again (preferably > back dated to the date we signed it last time so that the bank thinks we've > always had the new wording). > > I doubt I'd support any constitution that doesn't fit comfortably on one > side of A4. It's not really viable. Too many people are involved, there's too much basic paperwork and there are too many ways to cock it up. The checklist of a basic clean-up is one side of A4 [note 7]. I hate constitutions and here, we have a chance to avoid having yet another one. > If you don't like the idea of tearing up the constitution [...] I like it. That's exactly what I'm arguing for. Tear it up now and just go get an account held in trust for debian. Notes [note 8]: 1. From section 5.3, Andrew Phillips (Lord Phillips of Sudbury), "Charitable Status: A Practical Handbook" 5th edition, 2003. 2. Compiled from chapter 1, Hayes and Reason, "Voluntary but not Amateur" 7th edition, 2004. 3. From page 28 in Hayes and Reason. 4. From page 165 in chapter "Financial Management", Hayes and Reason. 5. From page 2 in Hayes and Reason. 6. The registered charity case is in Hayes and Reason, but I can't find a reference for the unregistered one. A friend told me it last May and I checked at the time. Both volresource and askNCVO have moved pages around since then. 7. A checklist is in Hayes and Reason. I think it was end of ch.1, but I didn't note the page and I'm not looking again today. 8. I think this sucks, but at least you can check that I've checked. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From huggie at earth.li Tue Aug 9 18:05:58 2005 From: huggie at earth.li (Simon Huggins) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:05:58 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> Message-ID: <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> --0fZkDq/H4AmqaB8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 05:18:03PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > Debian seems to be becoming a suspicious and unfriendly crowd. Well you do seem to be going on about stuff that everyone else thinks is done and dusted... > I don't want to object to anyone sitting in on the AGM, but please > let's not make it a big song and dance. Yet you keep posting on this thread *making* a big song and dance about it. > Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may well be > interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone want and enjoy > a needless AGM? An AGM of three lines in Steve's post at a meeting that happens every year anyway. Erm. > Do the simplest thing that works for banking: [..] > Late addition: I just called Norwich & Peterborough Building > Society's enquiry line a few minutes ago (www.npbs.co.uk - > I have accounts with them and they have a branch in Cambridge, > but you can pay in at branches of some banks nationwide). The > operator said that we'd need the usual proof of ID and address > for signatories, something from debian proving their charitable > status and authorising you to hold money in trust for them (would > this be DPL or SPI?) preferably on headed paper, then they'll > open the account, mark it as a charity account (no charges) > and do the rest. No deed of trust or stamp duty required. So the simplest thing now involves talking to SPI or the DPL and proving charitable status? I think you have a different definition of simple than the rest of us. Simon. --=20 UK based domain, email and web hosting ***/ "Do you have a girl coming /* http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ **/ over?" - /** sales@blackcatnetworks.co.uk */ Scully"What's a girl?" - /*** Black Cat Networks / Mulder /**** --0fZkDq/H4AmqaB8D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+OJ2MQdl+99c4rQRAjXcAKCCJaJtTnPF258D8g9rT9YXSY5p7gCggwmX EdtyHSXne7G56hr947S5HnI= =eBjy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --0fZkDq/H4AmqaB8D-- From iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk Tue Aug 9 18:22:33 2005 From: iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk (Brett Parker) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:22:33 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> Message-ID: <20050809172232.GA6703@pitr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 MJ Ray wrote: > Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may > well be interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone > want and enjoy a needless AGM? Erm, no, I was going to ignore the AGM on the basis that I'm not a member of the debian-uk society, what with not having DD status and all, I will be somewhere around it, though, enjoying the beer and BBQ. I can't see what the problem is with having the AGM at the BBQ that a lot of the members will be attending anyways... As there also, so far, appears to be very little on the Agenda for the AGM, I can't see the real problem that you have with a "needless AGM"? Thanks, - -- Brett Parker web: http://www.sommitrealweird.co.uk/ email: iDunno@sommitrealweird.co.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+OZYEh8oWxevnjQRAvdqAKDKOgEewytKiPVXbzPQE76oHuUKoACfRASk a8AEV4n24Uc4lqUmn6gH5fk= =N/cb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wookey at aleph1.co.uk Tue Aug 9 18:33:11 2005 From: wookey at aleph1.co.uk (Wookey) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:33:11 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050809173311.GJ20544@xios> +++ Simon Huggins [05-08-09 18:05 +0100]: > On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 05:18:03PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > > Debian seems to be becoming a suspicious and unfriendly crowd. > > Well you do seem to be going on about stuff that everyone else thinks is > done and dusted... I thhk that's a bit harsh. He's done some research and made some reasonable points. > > I don't want to object to anyone sitting in on the AGM, but please > > let's not make it a big song and dance. > > Yet you keep posting on this thread *making* a big song and dance about > it. > > > Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may well be > > interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone want and enjoy > > a needless AGM? > > An AGM of three lines in Steve's post at a meeting that happens every > year anyway. Erm. But it is still something we have to do every year just to maintain an account. If we can set up an account that _doesn't_ require this, for a similar level of initial effort, then that seems to me to be a better solution. It would have been smart to notice this _before_ we bothered writing a constiution. Agreed we can minimise the formalities of having an association, but it does seem that it is not actually the vehicle we really wanted (we want a bank account, not a club). > > Do the simplest thing that works for banking: > [..] > > Late addition: I just called Norwich & Peterborough Building > > Society's enquiry line a few minutes ago (www.npbs.co.uk - > > I have accounts with them and they have a branch in Cambridge, > > but you can pay in at branches of some banks nationwide). The > > operator said that we'd need the usual proof of ID and address > > for signatories, something from debian proving their charitable > > status and authorising you to hold money in trust for them (would > > this be DPL or SPI?) preferably on headed paper, then they'll > > open the account, mark it as a charity account (no charges) > > and do the rest. No deed of trust or stamp duty required. > > So the simplest thing now involves talking to SPI or the DPL and proving > charitable status? Gatting the DPL to say 'Debian UK holds some of debian's money - I authorise them to open an account' is hardly onerous. Having to prove charitable status might well be, and if that is harder than writing a constitutiona and holding short annual meetings then that probably means we should choose the association scheme. But I do think it is worth our (Steve's) while to ask before opening the account. Is Debian a Charity? > I think you have a different definition of simple than the rest of us. Well, he's making sense to me, and I think it behoves us to comend someone actually doing some research on something like this (albeit perhaps a little late in the day), rather than just being snide about it. Of course it's all tedious, but some one-shot tediousness now is better than a pointless AGM every year IHMO. Even a minimised AGM is still bureaucracy we could do without. Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ From jason at ukpost.com Tue Aug 9 18:46:54 2005 From: jason at ukpost.com (Jason Clifford) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:46:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > I'm surprised some think an association simpler. Why? > > Andrew Phillips puts trusts first in his list of types ordered > from simple to complicated (like most I've seen) and writes "The > trust is usually ideal for simple or narrow-purpose charities, > small-scale charities and charities not looking for formal > constitutional participation by volunteers or members."[note > 1] I think that's fine. The debian project has other ways to > interact with the bank account holders, as it does now, and > who wants more AGMs and voting? Marc, The above shows exactly why a trust is a bad idea. A trust is a specific legal setup suitable for registered charities. As it is designed in law to be the instrument by which a charity exists it necessarily involves rather a lot of legal nonsense applicable only to charities. Debian UK isn't a charity. A society, along the lines that's been adopted, is really nothing more than a kind of formalising of the current setup so that there can be a bank account with the Debian name on it which can have several signatories. > Pros: no need to manage membership or meetings, property can be held > in trust more simply, smaller group involved in decision-making. A trust must handle that property in accordance with specific laws - most of which are written with charities in mind. Any attempt to use that property other than as specifically defined in the trust document is likely to be unlawful and in some cases may even be a criminal matter depending upon how your lawyer writes the trust document. The very fact that a lawyer has to write the document in order to be within the law should warn that a trust isn't a suitable structure for Debian in the UK. > > The edge case here is probably something like "can we spend money made at > > the Expo to buy a beer for Alan Cox after tear-down, if we feel like it?" > > Trust: yes. > Association: yes, but the members can slap you for it. That's not exactly true. You can only spend the money from a trust in that manner if it's written in the trust document that you can. > > Also, would a trust not need a set of aims and purposes that were defined > > in terms that would keep a lawyer happy, whereas the constitution's only > > reason for existence is to reassure the bank clerk that opens the account. > > There's no change in lawyers or bank clerks, as far as I can tell. Trust law is not simple. If you setup a trust and mess up the legal side you can find that you are not legally allowed to do very much. As the whole point of this is to leave Debian in the UK able to do pretty much whatever people like. > In reply to Matthew Walster, there is little difference in > accounting requirements between an association and a trust. The > amount of paperwork depends on whether it's charitable and > what the income is, with steps up at 1k, 10k and 250k pounds > [note 4]. An association "must register if their objects > are charitable and their annual income is over GBP 1000"[note > 5]. The limits were expected to change with a new law, with the > lower one rising to 5000. An association that is not a charity doesn't need to register at all. > > As I see it, the current constitution does not preclude the possibility of > > changing it, > > AIUI, if a constitution is silent about changing it, the > law has a default. For registered charities, you need the > charity commission to agree. For others, you probably need > unanimous consent.[note 6] Both of those suck. Debian isn't a registered charity and doesn't meet the legal requirements to become one. There is no legal default requiring unanimous consent to the change of a loose association if it's not required in the constitution. > > so there is no need to change it unless there is actually an > > identifiable problem that is causing us pain, > > Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may > well be interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone > want and enjoy a needless AGM? How is it a pain for those who care to spend 5 minutes (with beer and a burger in hand I expect) to hear that there is x amount of money and nothing much needs doing? Without such an AGM how should someone - like you - who wishes to raise the possibility of alternative ways of doing things to have a chance to do so and there to be a result? > I thought the aim was to provide a smooth transition for money > and sooner than waiting for Steve's estate to be sorted. There's > less chance of a hattrick, but it's not impossible. I think > charities need at least three committee members, so swift > replacement would be needed after one bus, if registered. Again the charity issue. Debian UK isn't a registered charity. You folks are not bound by charity law - the whole question of how a charity must act is irrelevant. > I like it. That's exactly what I'm arguing for. Tear it up now > and just go get an account held in trust for debian. That still requires a legal definition and rules - hence a constitution. While you may be happy to have a document that is designed to control a charity and be subject to charity law I expect most people would rather avoid that complication. Jason -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ 2Mb ADSL Broadband from just £14.98 / month From mjr at phonecoop.coop Tue Aug 9 18:47:40 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 18:47:40 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:05:58 +0100 <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> Message-ID: Simon Huggins wrote: > Well you do seem to be going on about stuff that everyone else thinks is > done and dusted... [...] Apparently it was "done and dusted" before it was announced. Some people email telling me to reason it out; others email telling me to shut up. I can't please you all, so I'll please myself. :-) > So the simplest thing now involves talking to SPI or the DPL and proving > charitable status? AIUI, Steve's talking to DPL anyway to know who to pay. A letter saying "we are charitable in the US under 501(c) ref XYZ" shouldn't be hard and a letter saying "these people can call themselves debian" should be needed anyway, else I'm off to form the "Inland Revenue" society! > I think you have a different definition of simple than the rest of us. I'm glad. Some of you seem to define "simple" as "create a botched unincorporated association that doesn't fulfil the stated aim, with a shedload of legal implications that no-one has bothered to check, because of a questionable assumption, and then stick our heads in the sand, deny that any problems exist with it at all and whine that members we didn't warn before co-opting suggest dissolving it." I'd say "simple" is "ditch the constitution and AGM if we can." Regards, -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From jason at ukpost.com Tue Aug 9 18:49:04 2005 From: jason at ukpost.com (Jason Clifford) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:49:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050809173311.GJ20544@xios> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, Wookey wrote: > Is Debian a Charity? Not under English law. Also note that English charity law is due to be shaken up with a view to making it harder to be a charity if you're just on the edges of what is considered to be charitable atm. > Of course it's all tedious, but some one-shot tediousness now is better than a > pointless AGM every year IHMO. Even a minimised AGM is still bureaucracy we > could do without. But it's an excuse to get together, bbq and drink. Jason -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ 2Mb ADSL Broadband from just £14.98 / month From mjr at phonecoop.coop Tue Aug 9 19:19:18 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:19:18 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:46:54 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: Jason Clifford wrote: [...] > The above shows exactly why a trust is a bad idea. A trust is a specific > legal setup suitable for registered charities. As it is designed in law to > be the instrument by which a charity exists it necessarily involves rather > a lot of legal nonsense applicable only to charities. > > Debian UK isn't a charity. Why do you think that? You've written it many times without justifying it. As far as I can tell, Debian UK appears to qualify as a benefit of the community. Looking back, I see Oliver Elphick and Jules Bean also thought so. If the object is charitable and if the income is high enough and it's not part of anyone's income, it looks like we must register [note 1]. You seemed to be just plain wrong (contradicting Inland Revenue publications) on the minimum wage discussion, so I'm a bit sceptical about you on tax. Please explain this claim. For example, does debian fail under an obvious exclusion? Has anyone asked the Charity Commissioners yet? Does OSS-Watch or anyone have tame legal advice which could give a quicker reply? I think Debian's parent in the US (SPI) is registered and UK and US conditions don't seem hugely different. [...] > The very fact that a lawyer has to write the document in order to be > within the law should warn that a trust isn't a suitable structure for > Debian in the UK. [...] There are several "fill in the blanks" trust docs, apparently including some building society forms. You don't need a lawyer to fill in the blanks every time and this case should be simple. > Without such an AGM how should someone - like you - who wishes to raise > the possibility of alternative ways of doing things to have a chance to do > so and there to be a result? I'd probably mail Phil directly and he'd probably tell me to get lost because it doesn't involve me. That's near-normal debian behaviour, at least. OK? ;-) Notes: 1. read the other email. I'm not writing loads of notes again. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From huggie at earth.li Tue Aug 9 20:11:36 2005 From: huggie at earth.li (Simon Huggins) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:11:36 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050809173311.GJ20544@xios> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> <20050809173311.GJ20544@xios> Message-ID: <20050809191136.GQ20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 06:33:11PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > +++ Simon Huggins [05-08-09 18:05 +0100]: > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 05:18:03PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > > > Debian seems to be becoming a suspicious and unfriendly crowd. > > Well you do seem to be going on about stuff that everyone else > > thinks is done and dusted... > I thhk that's a bit harsh. He's done some research and made some > reasonable points. Sorry, I suppose I'm prejudging Mark's posts with a heavy dose of skepticism given his debian-legal background. > > > Reports, procedure and elections at a BBQ are pain. Brett may well > > > be interested in enough beer to ignore it, but does anyone want > > > and enjoy a needless AGM? > > An AGM of three lines in Steve's post at a meeting that happens > > every year anyway. Erm. > But it is still something we have to do every year just to maintain an > account. If we can set up an account that _doesn't_ require this, for > a similar level of initial effort, then that seems to me to be a > better solution. It would have been smart to notice this _before_ we > bothered writing a constiution. Agreed we can minimise the formalities > of having an association, but it does seem that it is not actually the > vehicle we really wanted (we want a bank account, not a club). We also want a bank account not a trust or charitable status. But we already /have/ this structure in place. And the AGM isn't onerous to perform at the BBQ so I really just don't understand where Mark is coming from or his motivations. > > I think you have a different definition of simple than the rest of us. > Well, he's making sense to me, and I think it behoves us to comend > someone actually doing some research on something like this (albeit > perhaps a little late in the day), rather than just being snide about > it. But we already /have/ a structure etc. I just don't see the point now. > Of course it's all tedious, but some one-shot tediousness now is > better than a pointless AGM every year IHMO. Even a minimised AGM is > still bureaucracy we could do without. I don't really agree that we need to go through all this again having done this when it was announced. -- ----------( "The claw chooses who will go and who will stay" )---------- ----------( )---------- Simon ----( )---- Nomis Htag.pl 0.0.22 From huggie at earth.li Tue Aug 9 20:19:53 2005 From: huggie at earth.li (Simon Huggins) Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 20:19:53 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050809191953.GR20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 06:47:40PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > exist with it at all and whine that members we didn't warn before > co-opting suggest dissolving it." Which members? I've only see you express that point of view. -- ,--huggie-at-earth-dot-li--------stuff-thing-stuff----------DF5CE2B4--. _| "Mais bouilli avec de la sauce à la menthe, Astérix ! Pauvre |_ | bête !" - Obélix - Astérix chez les Bretons. | `- http://www.earth.li/~huggie/ - http://www.blackcatnetworks.co.uk/ -' From moray at sermisy.org Tue Aug 9 19:42:29 2005 From: moray at sermisy.org (Moray Allan) Date: Tue, 09 Aug 2005 19:42:29 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1123612949.25122.109.camel@ascendit.sermisy.org> On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 19:19 +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > Why do you think that? You've written it many times without > justifying it. As far as I can tell, Debian UK appears to > qualify as a benefit of the community. >From what I've seen of the discussion, the purpose of "Debian UK" is to sell t-shirts and CDs, and occasionally spend the profit on travel and parties. I've looked at Scottish charity law more recently than English, but I can't see any grounds on which this would qualify as charitable? -- Moray Allan http://www.morayallan.com/ From wookey at aleph1.co.uk Wed Aug 10 00:32:41 2005 From: wookey at aleph1.co.uk (Wookey) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 00:32:41 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Admin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> +++ Jason Clifford [05-08-09 18:46 +0100]: > On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > > > I'm surprised some think an association simpler. Why? > A trust is a specific > legal setup suitable for registered charities. As it is designed in law to > be the instrument by which a charity exists it necessarily involves rather > a lot of legal nonsense applicable only to charities. (Rich) People set up 'trust funds' for their kids. This is presumably the same sort of account. Do these count as charities? Debian(UK) is at least as charitable as that I would have thought? (note I am not at all dogmatic about this and am happy to be persuaded that trust funds are indeed unsuitable for our purposes). Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ From olly at lfix.co.uk Wed Aug 10 05:08:33 2005 From: olly at lfix.co.uk (Oliver Elphick) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 05:08:33 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Admin In-Reply-To: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> References: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> Message-ID: <1123646913.14008.95.camel@linda> On Wed, 2005-08-10 at 00:32 +0100, Wookey wrote: > +++ Jason Clifford [05-08-09 18:46 +0100]: > > On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > >=20 > > > I'm surprised some think an association simpler. Why? >=20 > > A trust is a specific=20 > > legal setup suitable for registered charities. As it is designed in law= to=20 > > be the instrument by which a charity exists it necessarily involves rat= her=20 > > a lot of legal nonsense applicable only to charities. A charitable trust is somewhat different from other trusts. The main operational difference is that the trustees can operate by majority vote rather than unanimity. > (Rich) People set up 'trust funds' for their kids. This is presumably the > same sort of account. Do these count as charities? No. Charities have to be for the public good in some way. The definitions go back to the time of Elizabeth I. It is something like: 1. religion 2. relief of suffering 3. education 4. other public benefit > Debian(UK) is at least as charitable as that I would have thought? For the public benefit! However, it might be necessary to demonstrate that public benefit to the Commission. See the Charities Commission FAQ at http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/publications/cc21.asp However, being a charity means work for someone. If you get too enthusiastic about selling T shirts and put the income over =A310,000, you have to submit accounts to the Charities Commission. Also, you can't spend all the profits on beer :-( The main reason why in the past I advocated setting us up as a charity was that otherwise we would be liable to pay Corporation Tax. Since the rate of tax is now 0% on the first =A310,000 of profit, that no longer worries me (much). The other issues are about personal liability. If somehow Debian-UK were to be sued by someone, personal liability would be as follows: 1. (charitable) trust - trustees only to the extent that trust assets do not cover the liability 2. company (can be charitable) - limited by share or guarantee - usually =A31 from each member (=3D shareholder or guarantor), directors may also be liable if held to be personally involved 3. unincorporated association - all the members involved without limit - sorting out who were the members might be an interesting and expensive legal problem. See http://www.collyerbristow.com/site/default.asp?s=3D88&ctID=3D11&cID=3D197&b= hcp=3D1 http://www.askncvo.org.uk/Asp/search/docViewer.aspx?siteID=3D2&sID=3D35&doc= umentID=3D2093&catID=3D9 You might think that being sued was unlikely, but what if Microsoft or another SCO were to start harassing people on the ground of patents? the software patent issue in Europe is pretty murky now. --=20 Oliver Elphick olly@lfix.co.uk Isle of Wight http://www.lfix.co.uk/oliver GPG: 1024D/A54310EA 92C8 39E7 280E 3631 3F0E 1EC0 5664 7A2F A543 10EA =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Do you want to know God? http://www.lfix.co.uk/knowing_god.html From eddy at edlsystems.com Wed Aug 10 06:38:56 2005 From: eddy at edlsystems.com (Edward Macnaghten) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:38:56 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <1123612949.25122.109.camel@ascendit.sermisy.org> References: <1123612949.25122.109.camel@ascendit.sermisy.org> Message-ID: <42F992F0.6080108@edlsystems.com> Hi I am relatively new to this list so please forgive me if this post is out of order. I have been following this accounting discussion and it seems to be a bit of a storm in a teacup. I am no accountant, or lawyer, but if required I believe that Debian-UK could get charitable or similar status. It can get this on the basis it is not for profit and benefits others. Now for trusts.... The primary purpose of trust funds I believe is so that somebody's, or some group's, (the benefactor) money and assets can be managed and looked after by others (the trustees) in a prespecified way. The reasons for this vary, and Wooky is correct in saying that this is a way inheritance is sometimes managed where someones inheritance is placed in trust. Apparently there is, or was, some tax advantaes to this too. However I do not see though how Debian can benefit from a trust (though I am not an accountant) as the manager(s) of Debian's money is answerable to the Debian members anyway (ie - Steve should tell everyone what he has done with the T-Shirt money). If someone knows an accountant who is willing to look at Debain's situation free of charge then it may be worth asking him to. I believe only a trained accountant could say if charitable (or other) status is beneficial, and what the expenses and catches are. Also he may possibly know if Debian can apply for some Government grants. There may be a way to get some kit from this without costing Debian anything. Yours ever Eddy Moray Allan wrote: >On Tue, 2005-08-09 at 19:19 +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > > >>Why do you think that? You've written it many times without >>justifying it. As far as I can tell, Debian UK appears to >>qualify as a benefit of the community. >> >> > >>From what I've seen of the discussion, the purpose of "Debian UK" is to >sell t-shirts and CDs, and occasionally spend the profit on travel and >parties. I've looked at Scottish charity law more recently than >English, but I can't see any grounds on which this would qualify as >charitable? > > > From jason at ukpost.com Wed Aug 10 09:13:35 2005 From: jason at ukpost.com (Jason Clifford) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:13:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > > Debian UK isn't a charity. > > Why do you think that? You've written it many times without > justifying it. As far as I can tell, Debian UK appears to > qualify as a benefit of the community. Looking back, I see > Oliver Elphick and Jules Bean also thought so. If the object > is charitable and if the income is high enough and it's not > part of anyone's income, it looks like we must register [note > 1]. The "must register" is only true if you want to be a charity. Debian UK cannot be a charity in my view. This is based upon the following: 1. The charitable object "for the public good" doesn't include generating beer money and isn't as wide a definition as some think. Certainly the government have publicly stated that it is already being abused and they are going to pass legislation to significantly tighten it as I have stated. 2. Debian UK isn't a religion, an educational body or a body for the promotion of good health or medical works. 3. Even if Debian UK did manage to scape in as a charity under the "public good" objects, Debian UK would have to STFU in respect of political debates such as patent law, copyright law, freedom of information issues, etc. I don't see that being a popular choice. > I think Debian's parent in the US (SPI) is registered and UK > and US conditions don't seem hugely different. They are. The US definition of charitable for taxation purposes is wider than the UK definition. > There are several "fill in the blanks" trust docs, apparently > including some building society forms. You don't need a lawyer > to fill in the blanks every time and this case should be simple. Yes so long as your organisation fits their model exactly. That's always the problem with ready cooked legal forms - you end up having to fit your organisation to the form rather than having the form and thus organisation fit your actual needs. That's why those who are serious about such things pay large amounts to lawyers to write these things properly. Generic forms can be dangerous when they involve legal organisation. > 1. read the other email. I'm not writing loads of notes again. I did. It reflected a lot of good work. Unfortunately that work was based upon a premise that charity status would be relevant or appropriate. I don't see that premise as being correct. Of course I could be wrong. Perhaps the Debian UK folks want to take upon themselves the additional overhead and restrictions applicable to a charity and the risk that upcoming legislative changes may pull the rug from under their feet. I was basing my thinking upon the stated position that the aim is just to get a bank account in the name of Debian with a number of signatories and not much else. Jason -- UKFSN.ORG Finance Free Software while you surf the 'net http://www.ukfsn.org/ 2Mb ADSL Broadband from just £14.98 / month From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Aug 10 13:25:49 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:25:49 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Aug 2005 09:13:35 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: Jason Clifford wrote: > The "must register" is only true if you want to be a charity. I just spoke with Lyn at the Charity Commisssion contact centre (0870 333 0123), I put the above statement and was told it is false. What you want is not relevant in that way. If the income for this sort of group (not someone's business, and so on) is over 1000 per year, a completed application must be sent to Charity Commissioners by law, for *them* to decide whether it is charitable or not. They refuse to comment on specific cases until they see the application. The target for reply is 15 working days and decision in an average of 87 working days. The application form (APP1) doesn't obviously exclude us and all sections would need to be completed, because no standard form was used. http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Library/publications/pdfs/app1.pdf Sorry, all. Laws aren't written for Debian UK and it's a case of picking the "least worst" choice. (I thought an obviously excluded object, like political campaigning, excused it, but Debian doesn't have one of those anyway, this may have changed since I last checked (in 2001ish?) and I wasn't asking for AFFS.) There is no obvious difference between trust and society on this. > Debian UK cannot be a charity in my view. This is based upon the > following: > > 1. The charitable object "for the public good" doesn't include generating > beer money and isn't as wide a definition as some think. Beer is a method, not an object (for this, anyway). The object is "to promote Debian and Free Software in general." Because Debian is public-licensed, public-available and I don't know a similar case, I wonder if it could cover it. (Nothing in Charity Commission RR21 is quite the same, is it?) > Certainly the > government have publicly stated that it is already being abused and they > are going to pass legislation to significantly tighten it as I have > stated. This should stay within today's laws and, when they change, look again. > 2. Debian UK isn't a religion, an educational body or a body for the > promotion of good health or medical works. Agreed, at least in the sense of charity. > 3. Even if Debian UK did manage to scape in as a charity under the "public > good" objects, Debian UK would have to STFU in respect of political > debates such as patent law, copyright law, freedom of information issues, > etc. I don't see that being a popular choice. Debian UK Society hasn't said anything about those debates, has it? Anyway, there are some things that charities can do politically and the draft law may change that, too. What the heck would a bank account say about them anyway? If you want a larger representative society, that's different (and I think we have enough of them right now), but I was basing this on an aim of getting the bank account in the simplest safe way. In short, you've not asked anyone and aren't citing similar cases. You know as much (or as little) as several other posters. > [...] Generic forms can be dangerous when they involve legal organisation. I've seen some. The same is at least as true of original work, though. > > 1. read the other email. I'm not writing loads of notes again. > I did. It reflected a lot of good work. Unfortunately that work was based > upon a premise that charity status would be relevant or appropriate. [...] It wasn't. Of the notes, only one was from a book about charities and I think the quote holds in other cases. I didn't use that book much because it is aimed at charities, even though I think the author (a Lord) is more likely accurate. The voluntary org book suggests that we may be legally required to try registering and the Charity Commission seems to have confirmed that. Where's a substantial dissenting view? Bleakly, -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From wookey at aleph1.co.uk Wed Aug 10 13:56:22 2005 From: wookey at aleph1.co.uk (Wookey) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:56:22 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050810125622.GN20544@xios> +++ Jason Clifford [05-08-10 09:13 +0100]: > On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > > Debian UK cannot be a charity in my view. This is based upon the > following: > > 1. The charitable object "for the public good" doesn't include generating > beer money and isn't as wide a definition as some think. Certainly the > government have publicly stated that it is already being abused and they > are going to pass legislation to significantly tighten it as I have > stated. > > 2. Debian UK isn't a religion, an educational body or a body for the > promotion of good health or medical works. > > 3. Even if Debian UK did manage to scape in as a charity under the "public > good" objects, Debian UK would have to STFU in respect of political > debates such as patent law, copyright law, freedom of information issues, > etc. I don't see that being a popular choice. Perhaps not, but in practice I'm not aware that Debian-UK has ever expressed an opinion on any of these things so far, so it might not be much of an imposition. Many of us have expressed opinions in our personal capacities, on behalf of our companies, as constituents, or even on behalf of 'Debian', but Debian-UK never said a word. Of course it might want to in the future, so in theory the above restriction could be problematic, but once we have an account I can't see the bank reading articles linked from ffii.org, noticing that Debian-UK has expressed a political opinion and withdrawing the account - can you? And how do big charities that campaign on all sorts of things claim to be 'non-political'? Nevertheless I agree we probably want a non-charity trust rather than a chirity one. (And, yes I am now just arguing for the hell of it - I should stop and let your inboxes relax :-) Wookey -- Aleph One Ltd, Bottisham, CAMBRIDGE, CB5 9BA, UK Tel +44 (0) 1223 811679 work: http://www.aleph1.co.uk/ play: http://www.chaos.org.uk/~wookey/ From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Aug 10 14:28:30 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:28:30 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Aug 2005 06:38:56 +0100 <42F992F0.6080108@edlsystems.com> References: <1123612949.25122.109.camel@ascendit.sermisy.org> <42F992F0.6080108@edlsystems.com> Message-ID: Edward Macnaghten wrote: [...] > I have been following this accounting discussion and it seems to be a > bit of a storm in a teacup. [...] I agree. A simple task has been complicated. An accountant could advise on structure and I have one in my family, but would this society accept the advice? I don't like bothering them if it's no use. I doubt they'd put their name to it without charge, unless the firm wants the advert. Finally, more on my motivation. Skip this if you want. One motivation is the attempt to make all UK-resident debian developers personally liable by making them "members" of this pointless bureaucracy. Because the society involved me (but after the event) and I care something about the topic, I feel a duty to find and suggest a fix. There is a messy specific fix possible, just in case, but I'll try for a good general one this week. The other motivation is that the society doesn't seem to solve the stated problems and introduces new problems, which may be worse than those it avoids. I don't see: - "we did it, so let's stand by it whatever" - "we want to do X" where X isn't operate the bank account - unsupported beliefs about charity, banking or tax law as widely-held positions, but maybe they are. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From debian-uk at paul.sladen.org Wed Aug 10 14:29:18 2005 From: debian-uk at paul.sladen.org (Paul Sladen) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:29:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! (Available reference implementations). In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, MJ Ray wrote: > Sorry, all. Laws aren't written for Debian UK You've done alot of very useful research. Obviously, since we're techies, it would be good to beta-test anything before we commit to one approach. Would you be willing to setup a "Debian K.Lynn" or similar trust/charity entity, then let us all know what the pitfuls are and how the process works in practice so that those in control don't screw up when we come to do it for real with "Debian-UK" itself. Currently I think everyone is desperately trying to perform premature optimisation without real-world facts and what we're looking for is a good reference implementation based on the specification determined. -Paul -- The summer is normal here. London, GB From huggie at earth.li Wed Aug 10 18:40:36 2005 From: huggie at earth.li (Simon Huggins) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 18:40:36 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Re: Barbecue! In-Reply-To: <20050809191136.GQ20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> References: <20050727113842.GC18758@einval.com> <20050805112610.GB13120@einval.com> <42F88361.4090508@hands.com> <20050809170558.GO20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> <20050809173311.GJ20544@xios> <20050809191136.GQ20106@paranoidfreak.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050810174036.GU10793@paranoidfreak.co.uk> On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 08:11:36PM +0100, Simon Huggins wrote: > On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 06:33:11PM +0100, Wookey wrote: > > +++ Simon Huggins [05-08-09 18:05 +0100]: > > > On Tue, Aug 09, 2005 at 05:18:03PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: > > > > Debian seems to be becoming a suspicious and unfriendly crowd. > > > Well you do seem to be going on about stuff that everyone else > > > thinks is done and dusted... > > I thhk that's a bit harsh. He's done some research and made some > > reasonable points. > Sorry, I suppose I'm prejudging Mark's posts with a heavy dose of > skepticism given his debian-legal background. Just for reference, if people wish to claim my advice is absurd or want to resort to low debating techniques such as the classic beating women comment, perhaps they could refrain from doing so cowardly in private so that everyone might point and laugh at their pointless arguments? Thanks, -- Simon [ huggie@earth.li ] *\ I only play with my computer on days \** ****** ]-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-[ **\ that end in "y". \* ****** [ Htag.pl 0.0.22 ] ***\ \ From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Aug 10 20:42:25 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 20:42:25 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! (Available reference implementations). In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Aug 2005 14:29:18 +0100 (BST) References: Message-ID: Paul Sladen wrote: > [...] Obviously, since we're techies, > it would be good to beta-test anything before we commit to one approach. The best time to beta-test or review reference implementations is before releasing a "stable" version. No-one did, as far as explained. Now there's a release needing bugfix and Steve McIntyre, Daniel Silverstone, Thom May, Vince Sanders, Rob Bradford, Phil Hands and Matthew Garrett have cited us. > Would you be willing to setup a "Debian K.Lynn" [...] No. It would fix no bugs, make unfun work and be more bureaucracy. I've done some of this dull work now and am not hungry for more. Others can pick some up, else I move to plan B. Thanks and good evening, -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk Wed Aug 10 21:15:49 2005 From: iDunno at sommitrealweird.co.uk (Brett Parker) Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:15:49 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! (Available reference implementations). In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20050810201549.GB6943@pitr> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 MJ Ray wrote: > Paul Sladen wrote: > > [...] Obviously, since we're techies, > > it would be good to beta-test anything before we commit to one approach. > > The best time to beta-test or review reference implementations > is before releasing a "stable" version. No-one did, as far > as explained. Now there's a release needing bugfix and Steve > McIntyre, Daniel Silverstone, Thom May, Vince Sanders, Rob > Bradford, Phil Hands and Matthew Garrett have cited us. You've been at that book of yours again, haven't you... "how to lose friends, and annoy the fuck out of people"... > > Would you be willing to setup a "Debian K.Lynn" [...] > > No. It would fix no bugs, make unfun work and be more bureaucracy. > I've done some of this dull work now and am not hungry for more. > Others can pick some up, else I move to plan B. I wasn't aware that you were following a plan A. Would you like to enlighten us mere mortals, without the power of mind reading, what the hell plan B was? So far plan A seems to have been... "I'm right, you should all listen to me, I am infallible. Die Society, Die.", seems very Suffield like, that. Is plan B to go and sulk in a corner? You have raised some interesting points in previous posts, but you've also managed to upset lots of people in the process, you appear to have lost the knack of "tact", please regain this and try again. If you actually have something positive to contribute, then contribute it. If you really do want things done your way, then you need to convince people that you are right rather than playing stupid games. Oh, and accussing *me* of not being able to think or reply with my own thoughts, in private e-mail, and pointing to my ideas coming from someone elses experience with you in another project is just plain dumb, especially as he has not disclosed the problems that he encountered with you, and you have not shared this information with me either. Maybe you should take a look at yourself and check that you *are* right before telling everyone else they are wrong? Blip, - -- Brett Parker web: http://www.sommitrealweird.co.uk/ email: iDunno@sommitrealweird.co.uk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+mB1Eh8oWxevnjQRAihVAJ9LR4wwMsviZtbde7PMG/mTe6L1SQCgqpv6 +LMU2RvSP6W+pCwX5tE5EOk= =qfRE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From phil at hands.com Thu Aug 11 01:51:48 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 01:51:48 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Admin In-Reply-To: <1123646913.14008.95.camel@linda> References: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> <1123646913.14008.95.camel@linda> Message-ID: <42FAA124.9020309@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig6CE71F78B36354080AF75CCA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oliver Elphick wrote: > The other issues are about personal liability. If somehow Debian-UK > were to be sued by someone, personal liability would be as follows: >=20 > 1. (charitable) trust - trustees only to the extent that trust assets= > do not cover the liability > 2. company (can be charitable) - limited by share or guarantee - usuall= y > =A31 from each member (=3D shareholder or guarantor), directors may als= o be > liable if held to be personally involved > 3. unincorporated association - all the members involved without limit = - > sorting out who were the members might be an interesting and expensive > legal problem. See > http://www.collyerbristow.com/site/default.asp?s=3D88&ctID=3D11&cID=3D1= 97&bhcp=3D1 > http://www.askncvo.org.uk/Asp/search/docViewer.aspx?siteID=3D2&sID=3D35= &documentID=3D2093&catID=3D9 >=20 > You might think that being sued was unlikely, but what if Microsoft or > another SCO were to start harassing people on the ground of patents? th= e > software patent issue in Europe is pretty murky now. *sigh* Right, if we're going to contemplate the joys of being sued, which is the= only consideration that has even slightly piqued my interest so far, then= the right choice seems to be a company limited by guarantee. This means that each member can be held liable for a sum up to the guaranteed amount (normally 1 pound) and after that anyone trying to sue = us can go whistle. Of course, having a company means annual accounts etc. etc. which was why= we didn't go for that option in the first place. Do we care about being sued as Debian-UK enough to justify the expense of= running a company? That seems like the only justification for a change I've heard so far (but then I'm likely to be one of the trustees of a trust, so would get sued either way when comparing a society with a trust= , and would have a bigger slice of the dog turd to eat in option 2 ;-) Well, we seem to have a few options: 1) Shoebox full of cash under Steve's Bed 2) switch to a Trust 3) switch to a Company Limited by Guarantee 4) say "LaLaLa we're not listening" to Mark Since Oliver tells us that we need to make 10 grand before getting a tap = on the shoulder from the Revenue, I'm in favour of option 4, otherwise I'd g= o for the grey economy option 1. If people think its worth pissing away a few hundred quid a year on admin= in exchange for security against being sued, there's option 3, although i= f that's only one or two of us worrying, those people could always opt out = of the society and thus avoid liability. Thoroughly fed up that this is not being discussed over a beer, as earlie= r suggested, Phil. P.S. Thanks Oliver for limiting the altitude of some of the flights of fancy :-) --------------enig6CE71F78B36354080AF75CCA Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFC+qEtYgOKS92bmRARAq4cAJ9ZyWoMZ8Ei4VyppSAP20WopIZ4FACfYsS6 9HT7YmZxITM72zNUgo2HrPM= =90TH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig6CE71F78B36354080AF75CCA-- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Thu Aug 11 08:45:40 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 08:45:40 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Barbecue! (Available reference implementations). In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 10 Aug 2005 21:15:49 +0100 <20050810201549.GB6943@pitr> References: <20050810201549.GB6943@pitr> Message-ID: Brett Parker wrote: > You've been at that book of yours again, haven't you... [...] > all listen to me, I am infallible. Die Society, Die.", seems very > Suffield like, that. Is plan B to go and sulk in a corner? Two common debian troll memes, seen for the N+2th time this week. It's not "accussing" and not a game to me, but why do you play? Plan B doesn't involve you, Brett. Plan A barely involves you, as you made quite clear, so why keep butting in with abuse? I'm not being tactful here. We're past that. Those who I like or dislike mostly know it. If not, they can ask. Would debian-uk like effort spent buttering them up instead of checking facts!? Quite happy to discuss this over good beer at the Ouse Sailing Club in Ferry Lane, 8pm-ish, amongst other times, -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From steve at dobson.org Thu Aug 11 09:14:26 2005 From: steve at dobson.org (Steve Dobson) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 09:14:26 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Admin In-Reply-To: <42FAA124.9020309@hands.com> References: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> <1123646913.14008.95.camel@linda> <42FAA124.9020309@hands.com> Message-ID: <20050811081425.GA3081@sylvester> --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi First I want to make it clear that IANAL. On Thu, Aug 11, 2005 at 01:51:48AM +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > Oliver Elphick wrote: > > The other issues are about personal liability. If somehow Debian-UK > > were to be sued by someone, personal liability would be as follows: > >=20 > > 1. (charitable) trust - trustees only to the extent that trust assets > > do not cover the liability > > 2. company (can be charitable) - limited by share or guarantee - usually > > =A31 from each member (=3D shareholder or guarantor), directors may als= o be > > liable if held to be personally involved > > 3. unincorporated association - all the members involved without limit - > > sorting out who were the members might be an interesting and expensive > > legal problem. See > > http://www.collyerbristow.com/site/default.asp?s=3D88&ctID=3D11&cID=3D1= 97&bhcp=3D1 > > http://www.askncvo.org.uk/Asp/search/docViewer.aspx?siteID=3D2&sID=3D35= &documentID=3D2093&catID=3D9 > >=20 > > You might think that being sued was unlikely, but what if Microsoft or > > another SCO were to start harassing people on the ground of patents? the > > software patent issue in Europe is pretty murky now. >=20 > *sigh* I think you need to remember that a Microsoft or a SCO would be bringing a civil action, not a criminal one. This means that the person suing would be paying for the case out of their own pocket. =20 > Right, if we're going to contemplate the joys of being sued, which is the > only consideration that has even slightly piqued my interest so far, then > the right choice seems to be a company limited by guarantee. >=20 > This means that each member can be held liable for a sum up to the > guaranteed amount (normally 1 pound) and after that anyone trying to sue = us > can go whistle. >=20 > Of course, having a company means annual accounts etc. etc. which was why > we didn't go for that option in the first place. My position is that risk of being sued does not warrant the costs that runn= ing a company year on year would require. I don't think the profits from the tee-shirts and disks cover it - but that's just a guess. > Since Oliver tells us that we need to make 10 grand before getting a tap = on > the shoulder from the Revenue, I'm in favour of [ignoring the issue], > otherwise I'd go for the grey economy [a shoe box of cash under Steve's > bed]. We agree. =20 > If people think its worth pissing away a few hundred quid a year on admin > in exchange for security against being sued, there's [a Company Limited > by Guarantee], although if > that's only one or two of us worrying, those people could always opt out = of > the society and thus avoid liability. Did anyone else see that programme (on BBC2 I think) about the two eco-warriors that were sued by McDonald's? As I recall McD lost on most of their points, but not all and were awarded =A345,000. Those sued never pai= d=20 a penny - they publicly stated this on a national television. I think that we need to answer the question: What is Debian-UK doing that would cause Debian-UK to be sued rather than Debian, or Linux Developers, or Apache Foundation or IBM or Red Hat, ...? If Debian-UK is not doing anythi= ng different then why would a company sue Debian-UK rather that someone who as more money and therefore can afford to pay-up when they win? My feelings are that Debian-UK is so low down in the pecking order that we can risk not worrying about being sued. I think that one of the main reasons that SCO sued IBM is that IBM has lots of money in the bank. Steve --=20 I've had a perfectly wonderful evening. But this wasn't it. -- Groucho Marx --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC+wjhu7HOw0Q66oERAkdcAKCvAjuilwm0F1zQ2tBjcUp8q7/GjACgl3+Y qL3F2bmUn2DOxiSNlgrF0VY= =VmHH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --rwEMma7ioTxnRzrJ-- From dom at mips.com Thu Aug 11 10:30:09 2005 From: dom at mips.com (Dominic Sweetman) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:30:09 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> I've no idea whether this matters, but as someone who's talked a lot of law and stuff over many years: I can see two risks you might want to worry about: 1. The inland revenue does an audit of one of you and decides to charge you income tax on the profits from selling T-shirts and CDs. 2. Someone decides to get aggressive about IP rights in Debian. To avoid (1) you need to keep records to show that you're net contributors to Debian and the beer was drunk at meetings (or if you really make some profits, declare them on your tax return). I think you can't do anything about (2): they'd come after you as individuals, not a zero-value company of whatever kind. Trusts are horribly complicated, and by the time you mixed up a trust with open-source licenses you'd be easily tied up in knots by a hostile lawyer. -- [This mail in no way represents MIPS technologies, it's a personal view] Dominic Sweetman From olly at lfix.co.uk Thu Aug 11 13:25:24 2005 From: olly at lfix.co.uk (Oliver Elphick) Date: Thu, 11 Aug 2005 13:25:24 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Admin In-Reply-To: <20050811081425.GA3081@sylvester> References: <20050809233240.GK20544@xios> <1123646913.14008.95.camel@linda> <42FAA124.9020309@hands.com> <20050811081425.GA3081@sylvester> Message-ID: <1123763124.2064.16.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-11 at 09:14 +0100, Steve Dobson wrote: > My feelings are that Debian-UK is so low down in the pecking order that > we can risk not worrying about being sued. I think that one of the main > reasons that SCO sued IBM is that IBM has lots of money in the bank. I think I agree that Debian-UK would be a second-line target. SCO's motives were to rip off IBM; Microsoft's would be to destroy competition. So SCO would indeed not bother with Debian-UK or even Debian; MS, on the other hand, might do so, because they want monopoly more than they want money. However, they are more likely to go after Red Hat or Novell first. My conclusion would be that we should stick with the unincorporated association, but keep an eye out for increasing risks. Nothing is ever completely safe. Oliver From steve at einval.com Fri Aug 12 22:59:13 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Fri, 12 Aug 2005 22:59:13 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived Message-ID: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> --/3yNEOqWowh/8j+e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Grolsch: 50 for GBP 343.69 ---> cost GBP 6.87 each Guinness: 50 for GBP 314.31 ---> cost GBP 6.29 each Classic Ts: 40 for GBP 229.71 ---> cost GBP 5.74 each Fitted Ts: 15 for GBP 109.28 ---> cost GBP 7.29 each Polos: 24 for GBP 277.77 ---> cost GBP 11.57 each Debian women Ts: 40 for GBP 330.94 ---> cost GBP 8.27 each 219 for GBP 1605.70 I'll be at the AFFS AGM/conference tomorrow with some of these... --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com Is there anybody out there? --/3yNEOqWowh/8j+e Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC/RuxfDt5cIjHwfcRArxCAJ9rm5tHIHKcY3FqGTZ8OPDNeWAXaACdGXnm Ujcp3cwA9+CxR05UnWE7jgY= =AzA8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --/3yNEOqWowh/8j+e-- From jon at dowland.name Sat Aug 13 19:16:12 2005 From: jon at dowland.name (Jon Dowland) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:16:12 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived In-Reply-To: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> References: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> [in my first post to debian-uk...] On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:59:13PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Guinness: 50 for GBP 314.31 ---> cost GBP 6.29 each ^^ Are there any pictures of these ones floating around the web? Cheers, -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A 83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238 From neilm at debian.org Sat Aug 13 20:54:27 2005 From: neilm at debian.org (Neil McGovern) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:54:27 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived In-Reply-To: <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> References: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> Message-ID: <20050813195426.GB30261@mx0.halon.org.uk> On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 07:16:12PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: > [in my first post to debian-uk...] > Welcome! > On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:59:13PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > > Guinness: 50 for GBP 314.31 ---> cost GBP 6.29 each > > ^^ Are there any pictures of these ones floating around the web? http://people.debian.org/~neilm/guinness/guinness-debian-open.gif Cheers, Neil -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3 From lists at alcopop.org Sat Aug 13 19:16:12 2005 From: lists at alcopop.org (Jon Dowland) Date: Sat, 13 Aug 2005 19:16:12 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived In-Reply-To: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> References: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> [in my first post to debian-uk...] On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:59:13PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: > Guinness: 50 for GBP 314.31 ---> cost GBP 6.29 each ^^ Are there any pictures of these ones floating around the web? Cheers, -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A 83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238 From jon at dowland.name Sun Aug 14 12:23:54 2005 From: jon at dowland.name (Jon Dowland) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 12:23:54 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived In-Reply-To: <20050813195426.GB30261@mx0.halon.org.uk> References: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> <20050813195426.GB30261@mx0.halon.org.uk> Message-ID: <20050814112354.GA3663@alcopop.org> On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 08:54:27PM +0100, Neil McGovern wrote: > http://people.debian.org/~neilm/guinness/guinness-debian-open.gif Fantastic, thank you. -- Jon Dowland http://jon.dowland.name/ FD35 0B0A C6DD 5D91 DB7A 83D1 168B 4E71 7032 F238 From steve at einval.com Sun Aug 14 18:31:43 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 18:31:43 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] New Ts have arrived In-Reply-To: <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> References: <20050812215913.GI30519@einval.com> <20050813181612.GD1264@alcopop.org> Message-ID: <20050814173143.GA2943@einval.com> --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Aug 13, 2005 at 07:16:12PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: >[in my first post to debian-uk...] > >On Fri, Aug 12, 2005 at 10:59:13PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote: >> Guinness: 50 for GBP 314.31 ---> cost GBP 6.29 each > >^^ Are there any pictures of these ones floating around the web? Extra action shots are now linked too: http://www.einval.com/~steve/DebianT/ --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "...In the UNIX world, people tend to interpret `non-technical user' as meaning someone who's only ever written one device driver." -- Daniel P= ead --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC/3//fDt5cIjHwfcRAhsgAJ4giauuyIiIs+bL3dMWPVHCMoaDbwCfS0xO VWlNs96cGs+NbmnHap3KA1A= =OdDZ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --82I3+IH0IqGh5yIs-- From A.Costa at bristol.ac.uk Sun Aug 14 17:14:50 2005 From: A.Costa at bristol.ac.uk (A.Costa@bristol.ac.uk) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 17:14:50 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] help request! Message-ID: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> Hi to everybody, I'm sorry to bother you but I'm emailing you because I'm to sort out a problem with my viglen desktop system. It is a dual Intel Xeon 3.4 GHz, I have installed Debian Sarge 3.1 but I have two big problems. The most urgent is that I cannot use any windows manager because the graphic card, NVIDIA Quadro FX 540 128 MB, is not recognized and the driver that I downloaded from the web (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-1.0-7667-pkg2.run) apparentely is not good for Debian but maybe only for Suse. For this reason at the moment I can't start X! The second problem is related with the dual processor: although Suse is able to understand that the machine has two processor, debian can see only the first and I think that I should change some things and recompile the kernel but I don't know in which way. Unfortunately in my department there is any assitance for people who use Linux in general and Debian in particular. Could you help me, please? Do you know someone who use Debian in Bristol that could help me? I'm desperate but I wouldn't give up the idea to use Debian! Thanks in advance, Antonio Dr Antonio Costa Centre for Environmental and Geophysical Flows Department of Earth Sciences University of Bristol Wills Memorial Building Queen's Road Bristol BS8 1RJ +44 (0)117 954 5243 From daniel at pocock.com.au Sun Aug 14 21:24:48 2005 From: daniel at pocock.com.au (Daniel Pocock) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 21:24:48 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] help request! In-Reply-To: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> References: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <42FFA890.4070908@pocock.com.au> This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms020006080802010105070609 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A.Costa@bristol.ac.uk wrote: >Hi to everybody, > >I'm sorry to bother you but I'm emailing you because I'm to sort out a >problem with my viglen desktop system. It is a dual Intel Xeon 3.4 GHz, > >I have installed Debian Sarge 3.1 but I have two big problems. The most >urgent is that I cannot use any windows manager because the graphic >card, NVIDIA Quadro FX 540 128 MB, is not recognized and the driver that >I downloaded from the web (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-1.0-7667-pkg2.run) >apparentely is not good for Debian but maybe only for Suse. For this >reason at the moment I can't start X! > > I'm not too sure about this, you need to have a careful look at the documentation for the X server. There are various X server packages for Debian. >The second problem is related with the dual processor: although Suse is >able to understand that the machine has two processor, debian can see >only the first and I think that I should change some things and >recompile the kernel but I don't know in which way. > > Install the Debian package `kernel-package', and read the docs in /usr/share/doc/kernel-package this command will install it: apt-get install kernel-package libncurses5-dev These are the commands I use to build a kernel: apt-get update apt-get install kernel-source-2.6.x cd /usr/src tar xf kernel-source-2.6.x.tar.bz2 --bzip2 cd kernel-source-2.6.x make menuconfig make-kpkg --revision=cust1 binary-arch >Unfortunately in my department there is any assitance for people who use >Linux in general and Debian in particular. >Could you help me, please? 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In-Reply-To: <42FFA890.4070908@pocock.com.au> References: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> <42FFA890.4070908@pocock.com.au> Message-ID: <20050814203802.398292DE1F@webmail217.herald.ox.ac.uk> In message <42FFA890.4070908@pocock.com.au> Daniel Pocock writes: > > > A.Costa@bristol.ac.uk wrote: > > >Hi to everybody, > > > >I'm sorry to bother you but I'm emailing you because I'm to sort out a > >problem with my viglen desktop system. It is a dual Intel Xeon 3.4 GHz, > > > >I have installed Debian Sarge 3.1 but I have two big problems. The most > >urgent is that I cannot use any windows manager because the graphic > >card, NVIDIA Quadro FX 540 128 MB, is not recognized and the driver that > >I downloaded from the web (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-1.0-7667-pkg2.run) > >apparentely is not good for Debian but maybe only for Suse. For this > >reason at the moment I can't start X! > > > > > I'm not too sure about this, you need to have a careful look at the > documentation for the X server. There are various X server packages for > Debian. Generally using the VESA driver in the standard install works, or it does for the nvidia cards I've used. It probably doesn't get the refresh rate all the high-performance features, but it gets you X at a decent resolution. > >Unfortunately in my department there is any assitance for people who use > >Linux in general and Debian in particular. > >Could you help me, please? Do you know someone who use Debian in Bristol > >that could help me? > >I'm desperate but I wouldn't give up the idea to use Debian! Can I recommend that you try the #debian irc channel on freenode? These and similar questions are answered regularly and quickly. cheers stuart From list at youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 14 22:21:57 2005 From: list at youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk (Darren Salt) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:21:57 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] help request! In-Reply-To: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> References: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4D9A7C7DB8%list@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk> I demand that A.Costa@bristol.ac.uk may or may not have written... > I'm sorry to bother you but I'm emailing you because I'm to sort out a > problem with my viglen desktop system. It is a dual Intel Xeon 3.4 GHz, > I have installed Debian Sarge 3.1 but I have two big problems. The most > urgent is that I cannot use any windows manager because the graphic card, > NVIDIA Quadro FX 540 128 MB, is not recognized and the driver that I > downloaded from the web (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-1.0-7667-pkg2.run) x86_64 == AMD64. I was under the impression that Xeons are IA64... > apparentely is not good for Debian but maybe only for Suse. For this reason > at the moment I can't start X! X's "nv" driver should be present and available, although it'll only do 2D. Personally, I'd dump that card and get a Radeon 7000 or 9200SE or similar - but *not* newer if you want open-source 3D support. Of course, if you can't do that... Look for packages with names something like "nvidia-kernel-2.4.27-2-686-smp", ideally one which matches your current kernel (version, processor, SMP). (You may need to append "non-free" to a couple of lines in /etc/apt/sources.list then run "aptitude update".) > The second problem is related with the dual processor: although Suse is > able to understand that the machine has two processor, debian can see only > the first Only one reported during startup and only one listed in /proc/cpuinfo? > and I think that I should change some things and recompile the kernel but I > don't know in which way. What kernel image package(s) are installed? $ COLUMNS=255 dpkg -l kernel-image-\* | grep ^ii What does "uname -a" say? You may need to install a different kernel package (whether you build it yourself or download a packaged one) and update your boot loader's configuration. (You're probably using grub.) I have a suspicion that you've already downloaded and installed a kernel package *but* you're still using the kernel from the install medium, in which case the necessary change may be as simple as telling the boot loader about the other kernel image and to use it by default. [snip] -- | Darren Salt | nr. Ashington, | RISC OS, | ds@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk | Northumberland | Linux | ds@zap.tartarus.org | *Toon Army* | | Down with the Mackems! "Reports of my assimilation have been greatly exaggerated." From Sam Bashton Sun Aug 14 22:20:13 2005 From: Sam Bashton (Sam Bashton) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2005 22:20:13 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] help request! In-Reply-To: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> References: <1124036090.42ff6dfa5d48a@webmail.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <20050814212013.GA31361@bashton.com> --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 14, 2005 at 05:14:50PM +0100, A.Costa@bristol.ac.uk wrote: > I have installed Debian Sarge 3.1 but I have two big problems. The most > urgent is that I cannot use any windows manager because the graphic > card, NVIDIA Quadro FX 540 128 MB, is not recognized and the driver that > I downloaded from the web (NVIDIA-Linux-x86_64-1.0-7667-pkg2.run) > apparentely is not good for Debian but maybe only for Suse. For this > reason at the moment I can't start X! The 'nv' driver apparently supports this card. If you must want 3D support and are happy to use the binary-only nVidia driver, you can follow the directions at http://www.atomichamster.com/debian/nvidiadrivers/ > The second problem is related with the dual processor: although Suse is > able to understand that the machine has two processor, debian can see > only the first and I think that I should change some things and > recompile the kernel but I don't know in which way. There's no need to recompile - you can just install a pre-compiled SMP kernel. You say you're using a dual Xeon, so kernel-image-2.6.8-2-686-smp = will be the one you're after. HTH, --=20 Sam Bashton - Bashton Ltd, Manchester, England Linux Consultancy / VOIP Telephony / High Availability Systems www.bashton.com - 0161-424-9690 (Manchester) / 0208-035-9690 (London) --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFC/7WNUfE0fMAQ9eoRAisqAKCJyutDvv0wODsRHH8+lVchXBRdPACdHKm6 EArQBSZDIrcZ2y156FjDBkk= =9gDL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --YZ5djTAD1cGYuMQK-- From debian-uk at paul.sladen.org Mon Aug 15 00:52:13 2005 From: debian-uk at paul.sladen.org (Paul Sladen) Date: Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:52:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Debian-uk] help request! In-Reply-To: <4D9A7C7DB8%list@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 14 Aug 2005, Darren Salt wrote: > x86_64 == AMD64. I was under the impression that Xeons are IA64... Recent Xeons are capable of 'em64t', aka 'amd64', aka 'x64', aka 'x86_64'... ia64 is Itanium, aka Itanic, aka rebadged PA-RISC, aka wannabe Alpha. -Paul -- The summer is normal here. London, GB From mjr at phonecoop.coop Tue Aug 16 20:35:36 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 20:35:36 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 11 Aug 2005 10:30:09 +0100 <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> Message-ID: Dominic Sweetman wrote: > I can see two risks you might want to worry about: [...] I see another risk: someone cocks it up. Given there's no effective control, why should that implicate anyone else? This thing wasn't meant to do anything other than hold money, which shouldn't involve free software licences or anything complicated directly. A very simple small org would have done. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From peter at chocky.org Tue Aug 16 21:23:25 2005 From: peter at chocky.org (Peter Naulls) Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 21:23:25 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] RISC OS Computer meet Message-ID: Ok, it's not Debian, but it's computery, beer and in Cambridge which is most of the way there, and some of you have an Acorn background, which is part of the point at the meet. Anyway, there's beer to be consumed on Saturday in practice for the long weekened following. More details here: http://riscos.blog.com/280421/ Oh yes, if you'd like to claim any of my junk at any of the weekends in question before I finally have to skip or flog it at a boot sale, here it is: http://www.chocky.org/forsale/ -- Peter Naulls - peter@chocky.org | http://www.chocky.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- RISC OS C Programming | http://www.riscos.info/c/ From steve at einval.com Wed Aug 17 11:13:06 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:13:06 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> Message-ID: <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> --1UWUbFP1cBYEclgG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 16, 2005 at 08:35:36PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote: >Dominic Sweetman wrote: >> I can see two risks you might want to worry about: [...] > >I see another risk: someone cocks it up. Given there's no >effective control, why should that implicate anyone else? > >This thing wasn't meant to do anything other than hold money, >which shouldn't involve free software licences or anything >complicated directly. A very simple small org would have done. Mark, your continuing sniping is getting very tedious. Please give it a rest. Your views on how debian-uk should be organised are abundantly clear by now. Considering the train-wreck that is the AFFS constitution, it must be said that your past achievements do little to convince me of your arguments. --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com Support the Campaign for Audiovisual Free Expression: http://www.eff.org/ca= fe/ --1UWUbFP1cBYEclgG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDAw2xfDt5cIjHwfcRAg09AJ9S0TiMR5LJvQJMvPQVmf4+XqvfUQCfbmW9 FkmES4gwAKSANUbpIuMZiB0= =nNgN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1UWUbFP1cBYEclgG-- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Wed Aug 17 13:19:44 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 13:19:44 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 17 Aug 2005 11:13:06 +0100 <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> Message-ID: Steve McIntyre wrote: > [...] sniping is getting very tedious. Please give it a rest. Sure. There's clearly not enough support to repair it generally. > [...] Considering the train-wreck that is the AFFS > constitution, it must be said that your past achievements do little to > convince me of your arguments. But now you continue sniping? It comes down to perception of my past on fsfe-uk or debian-legal, rather than the actual facts? That past: The AFFS constitution is based on the then-current model from the National Council of Voluntary Org's, which was the best advice available and better than pub dreams. There is one bug (with known fix) from attempting to add postal voting. Otherwise, there have been three types of problem: 1. people attempting to "play" the constitution (inevitable?); 2. attempts to modify the constitution; 3. initial failure of the executive to adopt working rules. It's less than ideal, but it works. Where's the "train-wreck"? Not in the constitution. AFFS is also stable, useful and legal TTBOMK. It could be better (more open, for example) but couldn't everything? I also co-founded four other groups, which were/are successful and mostly harmonious, but usually I avoid constitution-writing. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From phil at hands.com Wed Aug 17 22:06:45 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:06:45 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> Message-ID: <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig21DEDEA1CCD7F34AA80BAAA1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MJ Ray wrote: > Steve McIntyre wrote: > >>[...] sniping is getting very tedious. Please give it a rest. > > Sure. There's clearly not enough support to repair it generally. That statement assumes that it's broken, which so far you've totally failed to establish. It's not perfect, but it's the least worst thing that anyone (including you) has suggested so far. The closest you've come to justifying a claim that you had a better alternative was undermined by the fact that you assume that Debian-UK is something that might become a registered charity. If you are _really_ concerned about the possibility of being sued as a result of being a member of Debian-UK (rather than simply using that as an excuse to justify your continued whining) then you will note that we allowed for the possibility of people opting out of Debian-UK in our glorious constitution. ;-) > Where's the "train-wreck"? Having a fixed number quorum, set high enough so that AFFS seems unlikely to ever be able to make any decisions at future AGMs has a hint of squealing brakes to it. Then we consider the legions of honorary and real committee positions, and, yes there it is, the Intercity mounting the suicidal farmer's tractor. Oh, the Humanity! Cheers, Phil. --------------enig21DEDEA1CCD7F34AA80BAAA1 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDA6bsYgOKS92bmRARAmnEAJ9isAx/hJHK5Qhb8od+/7rF5JndNwCfWs6z X5uzAFV38sAGaxVIvyjHagQ= =Fr1j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig21DEDEA1CCD7F34AA80BAAA1-- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Thu Aug 18 01:05:27 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 01:05:27 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:06:45 +0100 <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> Message-ID: Philip Hands wrote: > [...] undermined by the fact that you assume that Debian-UK is > something that might become a registered charity. [...] I didn't assume and I twice had good advice the society must apply. I'd be happy to see verified advice from other people. > > Where's the "train-wreck"? > Having a fixed number quorum, set high enough so that AFFS seems unlikely > to ever be able to make any decisions at future AGMs [...] Its 2004 AGM had the 20 needed and if the next AGM isn't held in summer holidays, I'd expect it could too. Train's still fine. -- MJ Ray (slef), K. Lynn, England, email see http://mjr.towers.org.uk/ From phil at hands.com Thu Aug 18 11:03:07 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:03:07 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> Message-ID: <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC3B7D90D60E4B801CE48B545 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MJ Ray wrote: > Philip Hands wrote: > >>[...] undermined by the fact that you assume that Debian-UK is >>something that might become a registered charity. [...] > > I didn't assume and I twice had good advice the society must apply. OK, lets have a look: Andrew Phillips puts trusts first in his list of types ordered from simple to complicated (like most I've seen) and writes "The trust is usually ideal for simple or narrow-purpose charities, ^^^^^^^^^ That looks like an assumption about charities to me. You in reference to trusts: There's no change in lawyers or bank clerks, as far as I can tell. Well, that shows what you know then -- My father has a series of trusts, and lawyers are most definitely required, either to be the trustees, or to set them up, otherwise it's entirely possible to get into a situation where you no longer have any access to the assets of the trust. As Oliver mentioned, non charitable trusts can only act by unanimous decision of the trustees, which is significantly more cumbersome than the committee just being able to get on with things. The rest of that mail has references to your assumption of charitable status in pretty much every paragraph, so moving swiftly on: ... A letter saying "we are charitable in the US under 501(c) ref Bzzzt! Next: I think Debian's parent in the US (SPI) is registered and UK and US conditions don't seem hugely different. Factually incorrect, and still assuming charity. I just spoke with Lyn at the Charity Commission contact centre (0870 333 0123), I put the above statement and was told it is false. What you want is not relevant in that way. Well, I just spoke to them, and I asked if we didn't really consider ourself to be a charity, and if we planned to spend some or all of the profits on beer, if we made more than 1000 pounds a year did we have to apply just in order to get a rejection and she said "Absolutely not! You have to have wholly charitable aims, and you cannot spend your profits on beer -- BTW can I join :-)" As mentioned both by Oliver and at the AFFS AGM, the limit we need to be interested in is 10000.00, at which point tax gets to be paid, and as Oliver suggested, keeping accounts to prove to overly attentive taxmen that you spent more on getting to an Expo than the beer payment in kind might make sense too. One motivation is the attempt to make all UK-resident debian developers personally liable by making them "members" of this pointless bureaucracy. Because the society involved me (but after the event) and I care something about the topic, As one of the documents Oliver referenced states, if you act on behalf of the society, then you are as liable as if the society did not exist. If we invite people to a society event (not likely) then we should print something limiting liability to society funds. If we manage to electrocute someone at an Expo, then perhaps we should have public liability insurance, but then again, we never sign anything to say who it is who's on the stand, so I don't see that anyone would be any more or less liable as a result of the existence of the society in that case either. In other words, the liability thing means that you don't get to hide behind the fig-leaf of "I was acting on behalf of Debian-UK" so it really doesn't make a vast difference -- I cannot see a member that was not aware of their membership, and had never had any active contact with us, finding themselves liable on the basis that they were included by our constitution. If that was a possibility, then you'd see people setting up things like "The UK millionaire's club", doing something naughty, and then getting a friend to sue the membership. Perhaps we should have public liability insurance for shows, in which case having it in the name of the society would almost certainly be a net benefit. On the other hand, we could continue to rely on the insurance provided by the Expo organisers, and luck. Is that all the "good" advice, or did I miss something? As you can perhaps tell from the fact that I went to the effort of disassembling your past points, I'm now fed up. I've been asking you from the start to provide an alternative structure, with a reasoned argument as to why it might be better, and unless I missed it you've failed to suggest an alternative beyond a (charitable) trust, and failed to provide justification that stood up to a moments examination. And all this to save the agony of an AGM -- Argh! OK, I admit, the non-quorate AGM of the AFFS was fucking painful, especially given that there was no possibility of it producing any concrete results. Our AGM on the other hand will have the benefit of being conducted within reach of both food and beer, and will last about 5 minutes. > I'd be happy to see verified advice from other people. I like the way you seem to assume that all the other things on this list have been unverified nonsense -- I think you'll find that Oliver Elphick is a Chartered Accountant, so he might have some clue about such matters as the tax and liability situation of trusts and associations. My father lives in a house that he rents from a trust of which I am one of the beneficiaries, so I have an inkling as to some of the wrinkles as well. The fact that you seem willing to dismiss all views that do not coincide exactly with your own gives a hint as to how seriously we should take those views. Cheers, Phil. P.S. I just spoke to the co-op about setting up an association account, and they said "Yeah no problem, we just need to see a copy of your constitution" so the snippet you provided about not needing one seems to be bogus as well. --------------enigC3B7D90D60E4B801CE48B545 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDBFziYgOKS92bmRARApR/AJ0UZ2LNW6IyttGQB1+LPGHzKWd+KQCeJyir h67H9MG6yStK54Le5zTQk1g= =sHdU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC3B7D90D60E4B801CE48B545-- From phil at hands.com Thu Aug 18 11:11:56 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:11:56 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Co-op Comunity DirectPlus account setup Message-ID: <43045EEC.2080902@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig5E34E5099968ADBC81AF0078 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Just spoke to the co-op, they're sending me the forms to set up an account. The account is free of charge, but will not be allowed to go overdrawn. In order to set it up, they want the personal details of the signatories, and a copy of the constitution. Personal details are: Name Date of Birth Nationality Position in the society Personal bank account details Home Address & and time lived there Contact Telephone number They gave the definite impression that it should be possible to post the whole lot off, and have an account set up in one transaction. This may get you to the Community DirectPlus page, or you may have to click your way there: http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/servlet/Satellite?cid=1078215985963&pagename=CoopBank%2FPage%2FtplPageStandard&c=Page Cheers, Phil. --------------enig5E34E5099968ADBC81AF0078 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDBF7sYgOKS92bmRARAnACAKCgjQeojFeB32lc75U6RQvT+ur59wCcDuC4 TTGtpnPDoyXTw4gD1pvVpVU= =/FfD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig5E34E5099968ADBC81AF0078-- From scott at netsplit.com Thu Aug 18 13:55:30 2005 From: scott at netsplit.com (Scott James Remnant) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 13:55:30 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> Message-ID: <1124369730.16261.74.camel@descent.netsplit.com> --=-qmgVMHwKFFyNIiz4eo2R Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 11:03 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > And all this to save the agony of an AGM -- Argh! >=20 When the only agony from a Debian-UK AGM will be your head the morning after? :p Scott --=20 Have you ever, ever felt like this? Had strange things happen? Are you going round the twist? --=-qmgVMHwKFFyNIiz4eo2R Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBDBIVBIexP3IStZ2wRAqw3AJ9+naXOsOfdHVPhzT++EgNOh/QzzQCgseAo ZvJo4Y1n5mRN5H+3mV9w46A= =DzF3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-qmgVMHwKFFyNIiz4eo2R-- From mjr at phonecoop.coop Thu Aug 18 14:55:45 2005 From: mjr at phonecoop.coop (MJ Ray) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 14:55:45 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 18 Aug 2005 11:03:07 +0100 <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> Message-ID: In summary: - quoting a paragraph about charities doesn't mean I assumed charity. It was just a handy comparison by a reputable man; - I wrote "as far as I can tell" but I believed those who wrote personal and general trusts are different. Maybe wrong; - If three of you can't agree, should the money be spent? - I'm glad if you've spoken to the Charity Commission, but I'm not sure where you're serious in that :-)d paragraph; - Oliver Elphick gives measured, substantial and accurate advice, has corrected me well more than once in the past (and thanks again, btw) and "verifiable" wasn't motivated by him; - I don't see how you can have opt-out membership either; - I'm fed up too; - You seemed to have assumed when asking: > P.S. I just spoke to the co-op about setting up an association account, > and they said "Yeah no problem, we just need to see a copy of your > constitution" so the snippet you provided about not needing one seems to be > bogus as well. If you asked for an *association* account, that's different to the original question of how we can we get "a bank account for Debian UK." -- MJR From olly at lfix.co.uk Thu Aug 18 19:02:11 2005 From: olly at lfix.co.uk (Oliver Elphick) Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 19:02:11 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Organisation (was re: barbecue) In-Reply-To: <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> References: <20050810054002.12219.51894.Mailman@chiark.greenend.org.uk> <17147.6817.75038.799376@doms-laptop.algor.co.uk> <20050817101306.GB4139@einval.com> <4303A6E5.4060702@hands.com> <43045CDB.3020308@hands.com> Message-ID: <1124388131.12407.10.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Thu, 2005-08-18 at 11:03 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > I think you'll find that Oliver Elphick is > a Chartered Accountant, so he might have some clue about such matters as > the tax and liability situation of trusts and associations. I am still an ACA, but I haven't been in practice for 23 years, so don't assume that I'm up-to-date on everything. Oliver From javier at candeira.com Sun Aug 21 19:59:37 2005 From: javier at candeira.com (Javier Candeira) Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:59:37 +0200 Subject: [Debian-uk] Possibility of Cambridge meet on Tuesday 23rd? Message-ID: <4308CF19.3040709@candeira.com> Javier Candeira from Spain here, some of you might remember me from Debconf5. For those who don't, I am a lowly Ubuntu user, and I also help run barrapunto.com, which is like Slashdot, only less technical and with more fools. And orange. You can stop laughing at me now. I am currently in London, and will be flying out of Stansted at 8.30 AM on Wednesday the 24th. If you were to arrange a pub night in Cambridge on Tuesday the 23rd (preferably in a nonsmoking place), and offer me a couch to lay out my sleeping bag in for the night (preferably close to the train station), I would be most enchanted to visit. Please copy me on this thread, I am not subscribed to the list. Ta, -- javier candeira From phil at hands.com Mon Aug 22 13:43:41 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 13:43:41 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] request for Gnome configuration training workshop Message-ID: <4309C87D.9080700@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig9B555206DF1E1C4A3FD7157A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Folks, Just had a phone call in which I was asked if I was able to offer Gnome configuration training for a one day workshop that the caller wants to include in a tender they're writing. I explained that I use evilwm, so know sod all about Gnome. So, they're after someone who's able to run such a workshop, and presumably write that fact up convincingly for the tender. Given that this is currently only at the tender stage, I'd advise anyone that's interested to contemplate what they're going to charge both for writing their bit of the tender, as well as doing the work if the final client actually decides to take up the offer. If you want me to pass on your details, drop me an email, or give me a ring. Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] http://www.hands.com/ |-| HANDS.COM Ltd. http://www.uk.debian.org/ |(| 10 Onslow Gardens, South Woodford, London E18 1NE ENGLAND --------------enig9B555206DF1E1C4A3FD7157A Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDCciEYgOKS92bmRARAl9NAKCXC3ATDJ0PLYNrwxmoDCryH5HHHQCfTjLD F2Ehh8V3gS+OHMnzX8JByr0= =6vid -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig9B555206DF1E1C4A3FD7157A-- From phil at hands.com Fri Aug 26 10:40:03 2005 From: phil at hands.com (Philip Hands) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2005 10:40:03 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Resignation? (Re: What the DFSG really says about trademarks) In-Reply-To: References: <87u0ik62r1.fsf@deneb.enyo.de> <20050725123051.GZ12210@yukidoke.org> <20050808003737.GM4781@nozomi> <42F8F741.1010504@perens.com> <20050819170033.GB5242@cyan.localnet> <43074680.3060106@hands.com> <4309E71A.2090405@hands.com> <17166.6252.896888.80131@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Message-ID: <430EE373.3090407@hands.com> This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC5BC9AC1F4ED28C305CC95FE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MJ Ray wrote: > Also, I want no part of this society, nor for it to suggest > support from me, and to avoid the inaccurate information it's > using about me. Those are personal rights DUS should respect > as the bare minimum to stop this and I need no GR for them. I _know_ that you've read the constitution[1] in detail, given the enthusiasm[2] with which you've tried to help us improve on it[3]. That being the case, you know that clause 4 of the constitution reads: 4. Any member may opt out of the society at will. So I take it that your public statement "I want no part of this society" should be interpreted as you opting out of the membership. Thank you for your positive contributions, and good luck with your future. Cheers, Phil. [1] http://wiki.earth.li/DebianUKSocietyConstitution [2] The thread starts here http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/pipermail/debian-uk/2005-August/010490.html [3] http://www.affs.org.uk/documents/affs-const.txt --------------enigC5BC9AC1F4ED28C305CC95FE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFDDuN6YgOKS92bmRARAuQ/AJ9vcvkllQT6bVqhT+7ddrs+VLLKBwCfcWiy oivjOPvYzOeSM/Gxy/+FFzw= =tBRa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC5BC9AC1F4ED28C305CC95FE-- From dc7 at earth.li Sun Aug 28 19:20:22 2005 From: dc7 at earth.li (Steve McIntyre) Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:20:22 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] Debconf6/7 volunteers Message-ID: <20050828182022.GU18135@einval.com> [ Cross-post to d-uk and dc7 lists in case some people have forgotten to sign up for dc7 ] A point in the dc6 discussion - they'd really like more of our people to sign up as volunteers on the page at http://wiki.debian.net/?DebConf6StaffVolunteers to make sure that we're up to speed on what's going on... -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com "Further comment on how I feel about IBM will appear once I've worked out whether they're being malicious or incompetent. Capital letters are forecast." Matthew Garrett, http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjg59/30675.html From steve at einval.com Tue Aug 30 00:28:06 2005 From: steve at einval.com (Steve McIntyre) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:28:06 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] lost+found Message-ID: <20050829232806.GZ18135@einval.com> --jZNlLGxhPb4urluq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Things left after the bbq include: * black hair "scrunchie" * blue nylon bag (sleeping bag bag?) * check shirt * sweater * "per una" carrier bag full of clothes * small plastic giraffe (tbm? *grin*) If you'd like to claim any of these, let me know... --=20 Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.= com "When C++ is your hammer, everything looks like a thumb." -- Steven M. Hafl= ich --jZNlLGxhPb4urluq Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFDE5oGfDt5cIjHwfcRAoUVAJ0a5SOL+kImtmMoStjYOa4N0anHdwCcCFsP PGq0L9jKKOUMzMcMjMuPzlk= =yMYI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --jZNlLGxhPb4urluq-- From tbm at cyrius.com Tue Aug 30 00:37:05 2005 From: tbm at cyrius.com (Martin Michlmayr) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 00:37:05 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] lost+found In-Reply-To: <20050829232806.GZ18135@einval.com> References: <20050829232806.GZ18135@einval.com> Message-ID: <20050829233705.GM16256@deprecation.cyrius.com> * Steve McIntyre [2005-08-30 00:28]: > * small plastic giraffe (tbm? *grin*) Indeed. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ From sunflowerinrain at gmail.com Tue Aug 30 23:10:09 2005 From: sunflowerinrain at gmail.com (sunflowerinrain) Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:10:09 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] lost+found Message-ID: * Steve McIntyre [2005-08-30 00:28]: > >Things left after the bbq include: > > * black hair "scrunchie" That's mine - Rob Taylor nicked it ;) I think I dropped my phone charger on the way out, too. Sorry for littering= . Thanks very much for such a good bbq. eli From matthew at walster.org Wed Aug 31 17:01:56 2005 From: matthew at walster.org (Matthew Walster) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 17:01:56 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] UK Demo Party Message-ID: <4315E284.30943.57A2A1@localhost> Very quickly, as I realise it's completely offtopic, but a lot of people asked me to email them at the BBQ about the first UK Demoscene Party in 5 years. You can find more info at: www.sundown2005.org There you go, have fun! Matthew Walster BeamCrew, Sundown '05 From pm at debian.org Wed Aug 31 18:56:58 2005 From: pm at debian.org (Paul Martin) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 18:56:58 +0100 Subject: [Debian-uk] UK Demo Party In-Reply-To: <4315E284.30943.57A2A1@localhost> References: <4315E284.30943.57A2A1@localhost> Message-ID: <20050831175657.GA4955@thinkpad.nowster.org.uk> On Wed, Aug 31, 2005 at 05:01:56PM +0100, Matthew Walster wrote: > ... the first UK Demoscene Party in 5 years... Am I getting old? My first thought was of a political party run on Classical Greek lines. -- Paul Martin From patrick at dcruze.org Wed Aug 31 15:12:44 2005 From: patrick at dcruze.org (Patrick D'Cruze) Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2005 22:12:44 +0800 Subject: [Debian-uk] James Bromberger's wild and wacky stag night Message-ID: <4315BADC.2000609@dcruze.org> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070003060602010802010705 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As many of you may know, James Bromberger has decided to end his debauched and depraved days as a young, single man and settle for the pipe and slippers of married life. The date for his impending imprisonment is the 2nd October and he is cowardly fleeing the country to do the deed (methinks there might be too many angry women in this country if he was to tie the knot here). So before he bids us fond farewell, we should reward him with one last taste of freedom. As James has tasted far too often of debauchery, the police (yes, he's been in trouble that often) suggested that a night of relative sophistication would be a good idea. To that end, a night of eating and merriment has been planned for Friday the 23rd September starting with a meal at Absolute Thai, followed by laughter at the Comedy Store, and then some good old drinking. If you'd like to celebrate the evening with James, you'll need to: 1. RSVP to me by 7th September (next Wednesday) at either patrick_dcruze@hotmail.com or patrick@dcruze.org 2. Book a ticket at the Comedy Store using the link below. Date: 23rd September Absolute Thai - 6pm 12 Upper St. Martin's Lane Covent Garden London WC2H 9DL Map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=WC2H+9DL&spn=0.009426,0.020099&hl=en The Comedy Store - 8pm 1a Oxendon Street London SW1Y 4EE Map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=SW1Y+4EE&spn=0.009426,0.020099&hl=en Ticket booking at the Comedy Store: http://www2.ticketmaster.co.uk/cgi/asp_events/byid_redirect.asp?event_id=18003AC8BC55B690&affiliate=M193 Cheers, Patrick D'Cruze patrick_dcruze@hotmail.com patrick@dcruze.org --------------070003060602010802010705 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As many of you may know, James Bromberger has decided to end his debauched and depraved days as a young, single man and settle for the pipe and slippers of married life.  The date for his impending imprisonment is the 2nd October and he is cowardly fleeing the country to do the deed (methinks there might be too many angry women in this country if he was to tie the knot here).

So before he bids us fond farewell, we should reward him with one last taste of freedom.  As James has tasted far too often of debauchery, the police (yes, he's been in trouble that often) suggested that a night of relative sophistication would be a good idea.  To that end, a night of eating and merriment has been planned for Friday the 23rd September starting with a meal at Absolute Thai, followed by laughter at the Comedy Store, and then some good old drinking.

If you'd like to celebrate the evening with James, you'll need to:
1.  RSVP to me by 7th September (next Wednesday) at either patrick_dcruze@hotmail.com or patrick@dcruze.org
2.  Book a ticket at the Comedy Store using the link below.


Date: 23rd September

Absolute Thai - 6pm
12 Upper St.
Martin's Lane
Covent Garden
London
WC2H 9DL
Map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=WC2H+9DL&spn=0.009426,0.020099&hl=en

The Comedy Store - 8pm
1a Oxendon Street
London
SW1Y 4EE
Map: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=SW1Y+4EE&spn=0.009426,0.020099&hl=en

Ticket booking at the Comedy Store:
http://www2.ticketmaster.co.uk/cgi/asp_events/byid_redirect.asp?event_id=18003AC8BC55B690&affiliate=M193



Cheers,
Patrick D'Cruze
patrick_dcruze@hotmail.com
patrick@dcruze.org

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